We walked out of school, and police were waiting on the steps

ЕЖ: Elena Zholiker АП: Anna Pavlova

АП: Hello?

ЕЖ: Hello.

АП: Hello, Elena, greetings.

ЕЖ: Greetings.

АП: This is Anna, from the Helpdesk Media. We had arranged to talk. Is it convenient to talk?

ЕЖ: Yes, it's convenient.

АП: Thank you for agreeing to talk. Let's start with how it's better to introduce you. Can we mention your surname? I assume yes. What do you do?

ЕЖ: Yes, you can mention my surname, Elena Zholiker. You have my information. I work at a medical university, associate professor at the department of medical informatics and statistics.

АП: I saw on your VKontakte a scan of a protocol, and there your workplace is written. If I understood everything correctly, some kind of sports institution.

ЕЖ: Well, that's what I told the police, that I don't work, and when they were composing a protocol on Varya, I just didn't want to tell my workplace at all, I just said that, blurted something out to them.

АП: I see, good. But in the Material we can mention the real workplace, right?

ЕЖ: Yes.

АП: Thank you. Tell me, please, what happened, how did events develop?

ЕЖ: From the very beginning, right?

АП: Yes. You don't need to go into great detail, I'll ask clarifying questions.

ЕЖ: As I understood, the principal, administration, probably the principal personally, ordered all teachers to submit lists of those who don't attend "Conversations about Important Things". That is, teachers started asking, writing explanatory notes, why your child wasn't at "Conversations about Important Things". Or they were just interested why they weren't there. And this was literally from the beginning of September.

There's no such statistics, they didn't have at that moment: first lesson, second lesson, and they immediately, right away, all teachers started writing these service notes about those absent. At least that's how I understood from my daughters. I have two children, one studies in third grade, the other in fifth grade. I tell everyone that I understood what kind of lessons these "About Important Things" were, but I didn't have such confidence that my children definitely wouldn't go there. That is, September 5th they were at school early in the morning, at 8 AM, when these lessons go. Then the next week someone from the children got sick or both got sick...

This whole situation is focused on Varya, who studies in 5th grade. She was sick twice until September 26th – with fever, with cough. But I usually don't go to the clinic, because it's impossible to get in there. We somehow came to the duty doctor, there were 66 people in the queue there. Well we turned around and left. I usually treat them myself, at home. The school allows it. If the illness lasts up to five days, if you're absent up to five days, a note from parents is enough, that "my child is sick, we'll go through the whole program". We [parents] take responsibility upon ourselves, for the health, life of the child and for going through the academic program. I always warned teachers that my children are sick.

And September 26th my children, as far as I remember, were healthy, we went to the orthodontist, to the dental clinic, and on the same day Varya's teacher called, asked again, "why weren't you there". I explained to her that we were at the doctor's, said that that's it, we'll... the presentation... Moreover, she only asks about "Conversations about Important Things", the other lessons that we missed, she wasn't interested in at all, only specifically this lesson. I explained to her that we were at the doctor's, that we'll look at the presentation... There just happened to be, I think, their topic was "Tsiolkovsky". And on the same day she wrote a service note to the principal's name, that mama doesn't allow children to attend these lessons, classes, "Conversations about Important Things", that Varya has an unusual avatar.

And the next day they sent me a letter. Even first, I think, the teacher called and asked to come specifically today. I answered that I can't come specifically today. As a result, on the 29th I ended up there, they gathered a whole teachers' council for me alone and asked about these "Lessons about Important Things". Again, I tell them that we were sick, we went to music school... And then I didn't understand that it was only about "Lessons about Important Things". I thought in general, that we had missed some number of lessons there. And they say: "No, we don't care how much math or history you missed, – we care that you don't go to 'Lessons about Important Things'".

To my phrases that we'll look at the presentation at home, – because all these presentations the Ministry of Education posts on a special website, – they told me: "You don't listen to the anthem at home and don't raise the flag". You need to come to school early so that all together they do this action.

АП: Please clarify: these lessons go once a week and they go in the morning, before the main lessons?

ЕЖ: Classes always start at 8 AM, and at 8 AM as the first lesson these "Conversations about Important Things". Yes, they're like this throughout the country. But in our schedule in September at first there wasn't this lesson at all. It appeared about a week later somewhere at the end [of the lesson list]. It was written that the lesson starts at 09:00, then at 10:00 the next one, and at the end [of the lesson list] this extracurricular activity. But it was written that at 08:00 such-and-such extracurricular activity. Now it's also written "Extracurricular activity", well there consecutively already, 8, 9, 10 [o'clock]. It's like this throughout Russia – first lesson on Monday.

On the 29th I was there, well and there they also composed a protocol of this meeting, and in the protocol it's written that I'm not against children attending these lessons. And on the 30th the principal, Bulaeva Maya, wrote an application to the police and to the Commission for Juvenile Affairs, that Varya has some kind of avatar... Oh, and there Varya was also conducting a poll just then too either on the 29th, or 30th... Well, we never understood what kind of poll it was, because in the children's group chat all messages were deleted. At 0 hours the chat was reset to zero, there were such settings there.

АП: This is a WhatsApp chat?

ЕЖ: The chat was in Telegram.

АП: This is a class chat, where schoolchildren communicate among themselves?

ЕЖ: Yes, children's chat, schoolchildren communicate among themselves. Someone, – not my children, – someone started talking about Zelensky and in general, what's happening there... I understood that there was correspondence among them, and my daughter also wrote something there. Someone from parents made a screenshot, – well as they say, – someone from parents complained...

АП: As the children say?

ЕЖ: No, not children, I never communicated with children on this topic. The teachers themselves, all this school administration, they... When there was a meeting about this administrative protocol, which they opened on me, we were finding out where this picture came from at all, which messenger, that is, evidence should be confirmed somehow. Well you can't just say: "Here came an anonymous complaint". As far as I know, there should be confirmations, who, at what time, where all this came from... I was interested, and what was before? One message was pulled out of context, and what was before? Something was there, right? Why didn't they make a screenshot of the full phone screen? Specifically one message [they screenshotted]. I as a mother say that I didn't see this message and no one can confirm that it was there. No parent was found, didn't say: "Here I am, I confirm, I saw" or something like that, everyone is somehow silent, quieted down... Well, they, in general, already about this chat, they didn't insist on it. As some accompanying thing they show it...

АП: I'll clarify now. You were called on the 29th to school for this meeting. Who was there? There was the principal, class teacher, who else?

ЕЖ: No. Neither the principal nor the class teacher was there. There were two deputy principals. In what capacity, I don't know, I know that they're deputies. One head teacher was there. Deputy principal and head teacher – these are different things. There were two deputy principals, one head teacher and three social pedagogues.

I also work at such a job: everyone respects me, everyone loves me. We have respectful attitude toward each other with colleagues, with friends, generally wherever I come to some institutions. And here I came to school and, you know, as if they [look] at me like at something bad, with such arrogant... They sat me down as if some kind of failing student to scold. I looked at them, simply couldn't understand how to talk with them. On some different levels, in different languages we were speaking with them.

Such pedagogues, I don't even know how children there... Children... I asked Varya's elementary school teacher to write a character reference for Varya, because I know that my Varya studies well, her behavior is always good, there were never any remarks from anyone, generally – not a phone call. And I asked the elementary school teacher to write a character reference. She refused, said that she's afraid of consequences.

АП: Unbelievable...

ЕЖ: Well it's understandable that she would write a good character reference, and so she's afraid of consequences. I even tell her: "I don't need anything, no stamp, just your surname, that you wrote this". No, she refused, such is this school, imagine.

АП: Uh-huh, of course, surprising... And tell me, please, did they ultimately show you a screenshot of only one message from Varya from this chat?

ЕЖ: Yes, yes.

АП: And what was there?

ЕЖ: There was a poll. The approximate meaning was: "What are you for: for peace or for Putin to kill Ukrainians?". Something like that was there.

АП: And the avatar...

ЕЖ: There the avatar – I can make as many as I want of such ones. You just write something and cut it out. We even did that, practiced, when we were trying to understand, – is this a real screenshot or... It's already impossible to determine there, whether it's that or not.

I didn't communicate with any other children. Children relate to this so easily, they already forgot all this. They argued about Zelensky, about Ukraine and that's it, forgot, went further, no one remembers this.

АП: Did anyone explain to you where this screenshot came from at all?

ЕЖ: No, no one. They even asked at the meeting, in an official setting, when they requested some official evidence. Simply "a collective of parents appealed" and that's all.

АП: That is, these deputy principals, head teachers, all these people said that a collective of parents appealed with such a complaint?

ЕЖ: No, wait. Look, on the 29th, when I was at school, there were head teachers, social pedagogues, deputy principals. Then there wasn't this poll yet. The poll appeared the next day, probably.

They were calling me, probably, the whole week, demanding something: either come, or "why weren't you at lessons?" They called on the 27th and said, you need to come right now. I say: "I can't". They call on the 28th or write: "You need to come". In the end I reached them on the 29th. And on the 29th there wasn't yet talk about the chat. Probably, the next day they called me again. Even when they called me to talk about this chat, I already related to this, that they're just bothering me and making up anything, just to get at me again. I didn't take this seriously at all. I related to this as if to such teachers, well like... abuse.

They just bothered me the whole week, I already felt bad from their calls. I see that they're calling me, I already started feeling sick. I'm dealing with my affairs, children, I have work, and they call me and want something. And moreover for me these are generally some kind of light things, to which I would never pay attention. And they wrote an application to the police, to the Commission for Juvenile Affairs. This was on the 30th. But I didn't know about this, we lived our life there.

And on the 5th in the morning a policewoman called me from my younger daughter's phone. She said, like in a detective story: "We have your child, you must come to such-and-such place". They said that they'll take Varya to the police station and I must appear there, to this police station.

АП: Did you go to school immediately?

ЕЖ: I went to the police station, but they... Someone from school administration called, and said that Varya is still at their school. They're not letting her go with the police. It seems like the police wanted to take her, drive her to the station, but at school they slowed them down, said: "Let's still here, at school, sort things out". When I arrived at the school, they started showing me these avatars again. And I was frightened: where are my children? They had called from Sonya's phone – Sonya is my younger daughter – and I thought that Sonya had been kidnapped, where is my Sonya... I asked to speak with her, they wouldn't let me. I ask: "Where are my children anyway? Let me look at them. I don't care about your avatars, not about the police." But they have their own work: they need to find something there, do something, somehow intimidate...

I understood that they just... I don't know, I don't believe that people can have such traits. This principal, she was elected as a municipal deputy from "United Russia" in September. I think that what she's doing is connected to these "Conversations about Important Things," and her passionate urge for all parents to attend these lessons – only because she became a deputy, she wants to curry favor somehow or she felt power.

They don't call police on ten-year-old children even for an avatar. They have other tricks there at school: fights, some screaming. They never call anyone at all, they always resolve this within the school. But here nobody fought, nobody beat anyone up, silence, just a girl has a pro-Ukrainian avatar – they called police.

АП: When you arrived, you ended up at the principal's office, as I understand? Then you spoke with her for the first time?

ЕЖ: I didn't see her at all, the principal. I still haven't seen her.

АП: All this time she hasn't tried to contact you in any way?

ЕЖ: No, no. When I got there, I started looking for my children. Someone saw me, led me into a room again – they have such a department on the floor where only administration is located. They led me into one room, there came this policewoman who had called me from my daughter's phone, one social pedagogue and another man in civilian clothes. And I asked everyone for names, asked them to introduce themselves, to show me their IDs. And Mzhelskaya introduced herself – that's the policewoman. The social pedagogue – I had seen her at our first meeting on the 29th. And the man said that he wouldn't introduce himself and that I could consider him an FSB employee. He sat there giggling the whole time.

Again they started telling me about the avatar, about this chat... Well, I'm like: "So what? Where are my children? Show me the children!" Then they brought Varya and said that now they're taking Varya to the police station. That is, like mom is here...

АП: On what grounds? How did they explain why they're taking her to the station at all, and who called police?

ЕЖ: They showed Bulaeva's letter, the school principal's. And they'll take her on the grounds that she has a yellow-blue avatar and this chat with "obscenities." The grounds were – the avatar and her message in the chat.

АП: Does she have just a yellow-blue flag on her avatar in Telegram?

ЕЖ: She had such a cartoon-like, like drawn... Well, we've now figured out that this is a meme, called "Saint Javelin" (note – a drawing that became a meme, depicting a woman with a halo over her head and with a Javelin anti-tank system in her hands). At that time I didn't even know what the cannon in her hands was called. "Saint Javelin," such she is, in the form of a doll, like anime. Well, that is, it was quite a childish avatar. Behind, yes, yellow-blue flag: just half yellow, half blue. And in small letters on the halo it says "Glory to Ukraine" in Ukrainian, not our Cyrillic. The avatar was a pretext and her message in the chat. I saw this avatar and didn't look closely at halos or anything else. And the message, they never said where this message came from, where it was. So the pretext was such.

And then they took us [to police]. Well, how did they take us? We had already come out of school onto the porch, they tell me: "Now Varya will go with us, and you get to the police station yourself." My Varya started screaming, of course, having hysterics: "Mom, mom!" And two police officers were waiting for Mzhelskaya on the porch. And so Varya is screaming, I'm trying to calm Varya down, and they don't even let me near her, just so I could hug her somehow. I tell the police officers: "We'll get to the police station ourselves now." No way.

And Mzhelskaya commanded something to these two police officers. One of them grabbed me, somehow twisted my arm, I couldn't even move, it was painful. This Mzhelskaya from the other side. A police officer also grabbed Varya, and they just dragged us almost by force to their car. When he was holding me like that and sort of dragging me, I still ask: "Generally, on what grounds? Don't you want to introduce yourselves there? And why are you behaving like this?" And they just laugh, just brazenly, say something rude.

АП: So they told you that you're being taken for this avatar, but didn't present anything, didn't introduce themselves?

ЕЖ: No, the police officers didn't introduce themselves. And I asked these two. Only Mzhelskaya introduced herself. And even then, I asked to show ID, she said: "No need." They behaved rudely, just rudely. I understood that they can do what they want, and they know that nothing will happen to them for this. Just for their pleasure such bestial, it was fun or good for them from all this.

АП: To which station did they bring you? What happened there?

ЕЖ: They brought us to the Nekrasovka station, OMVD "Nekrasovka." There on the first floor they told us: "Wait." We waited there, sat for about 20 minutes. Then Mzhelskaya came, took us to her office, and some other people came there. I asked: "Introduce yourselves, I'll write it down." They said they were representatives of guardianship and the so-called "My Family Center 'Harmony'."

АП: What a telling name.

ЕЖ: Yes. This is GBU – a state organization that deals with social protection of the population, those who fell into difficult times, children, all kinds of people in need. In Moscow, as I understand, there are several such organizations, they have branches in different districts. We have this particular one in Nekrasovka, "My Family Center 'Harmony'."

Mzhelskaya was there and two more guys, well two young men, and, I think, two women. Then a third appeared from somewhere, I don't remember. And so they asked questions for three hours. Moreover, they introduced themselves as psychologists from this center "Harmony," from guardianship, but they didn't behave like psychologists. They didn't support the child in any way, didn't calm him down in any way, but on the contrary.

I was scared to be there. I understood that they can generally do whatever they want now. They threatened to leave me there, to put Varya somewhere. My younger daughter remained at school, I told them... I'm generally still trying to live some life of my own, I say: "We have music school in half an hour, we need to go to class." And they laugh like this: "Forget it." But it's like we want to deal with children, so that children feel good, and you're depriving them of music school classes now. There was a concert for Teacher's Day. No, doesn't matter at all.

АП: What questions did they ask you? What did they ask you, your daughter?

ЕЖ: In the police department they gave me Bulaeva's letter that she wrote to police, and asked me to give an explanation.

АП: You saw it for the first time there, at police?

ЕЖ: Yes, I saw it there for the first time. Well, and they also asked Varya about this avatar and about the chat. Then they started asking about politics, about everything happening in the world. From their conversations – Mzhelskaya was talking on the phone with a guy, someone was there – I understood that they want to draw up a protocol against me under the article "Discrediting the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation," this 20.3.3. [They wanted to draw up a protocol] both against Varya and against me. Someone says that it won't work against Varya, because the age is wrong. – "Well then against mom" – against me.

They asked such political questions: "Who do you support?", "How do you feel about the SVO?" They asked, "What do you do?", "What TV programs do you watch?" They wanted to understand the position.

АП: How did Varya react to everything happening?

ЕЖ: Varya just sat, didn't react in any way, just sat silently. At some point I joked, wanted to support her somehow. She's generally a very cheerful, life-loving person, constantly smiles. But here she sat serious, didn't move at all. And basically I said something to her, she smiled, and one of these supposed psychologists said to her: "Why are you grinning?"

АП: Nightmare...

ЕЖ: This is a psychologist who came to help her in a difficult moment. That's what it was. And 3 hours...

АП: You sat there for three hours?

ЕЖ: Yes. They asked to show the phone. When they called me and said that Varya wrote something terrible, I thought that they will now make everything up, just to make things bad for Varya, for me. I took the phone away from Varya and tell her: "So, you don't communicate with anyone at all, or else they'll make up anything now" – and took the phone away from Varya. Varya went to school without a phone for a week.

АП: This was still before this ill-fated chat appeared, this message in the chat?

ЕЖ: No, I took the phone away right after they told me that Varya wrote something in the chat. I took her phone away so that no one could say that "you wrote something in the chat there," because Varya doesn't use the phone. I didn't understand then whether it was true or not true. I just took her phone away, said: "Don't communicate with anyone at all, since such things are happening there."

I was on October 5th with this phone of Varya's. Like this is my phone, it's in my hands. I had Varya's SIM card there and mine. And they wanted to check everyone's phones at the police station. They took Sonya's phone, when Mzhelskaya took the phone from her and called me, they gave the phone back to her only after the lesson, after an hour. They probably looked at it, examined it, rummaged through it.

АП: So they came to her class, took the phone from her?

ЕЖ: They called her from the lesson. Someone came for her and to this room where the policewoman was sitting with Varya, they called Sonya, said: "Come with the phone." There they took the phone from her, found [contact] "Mom," and Sonya was taken back to class, well or they let her go, and kept the phone. And this phone was given back to Sonya only on the next break.

АП: All this time Varya was with the policewoman while you were driving?

ЕЖ: I don't know where she was. No, Varya says that... Well, possibly... The policewoman was interrogating her at school.

АП: Without you and without a teacher, without some school representative?

ЕЖ: Someone from school was there. The social pedagogue was there, psychologist, this unknown man whom we never saw before or after.

АП: But you weren't present?

ЕЖ: I wasn't there. Several people were there, they were interrogating Varya, asking her questions. Then, as I understand, they took her to class for half a lesson. And then I arrived, and they again... Or it was already a break... In general, somehow, they took her back and forth...

АП: You said that at the police station you had Sonya's phone.

ЕЖ: No, not Sonya's, Varya's, Varya's phone. They called both me on the phone and Varya on the phone. They didn't understand that there were two SIM cards in one phone. And they asked me to show the phone, what chats in Telegram, what apps I have. And moreover, when I said why should I show my phone, on what grounds at all, they answered: "Well, so what? Now we'll leave you here and take away the phone" – well, that's how they intimidated. You already think: "Well, I'll show the phone, what's there"... That's how they behaved at the police station. All three hours we were busy with something: some questioning, answers.

АП: At the same time they didn't show you any papers except the letter from the principal?

ЕЖ: Yes, yes, only the letter from the principal was there, they didn't show anything.

АП: What was said in this letter? ЕЖ: In the letter there was somewhere a paragraph about the avatar, a paragraph about mom interfering with attendance at "Conversations about Important Things," and a paragraph about Varya. There was her description, that she studies well, such a sociable child – such a positive description. But nevertheless "we ask you to pay attention to her civic position," "we ask you to visit the dwelling where she lives, check with whom she communicates" – something like that was there. I can send you this letter, I have these screenshots somewhere. There was a paragraph about this chat. Well, the chat was somehow together with the avatar, I think. Well, that is, these kinds of things. I wrote an explanation for this, we just talked. There were two men there, I understood, one of them was an E-shnik [editor's note: employee of the Main Directorate for Combating Extremism of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation, "Center E"] – the most curious one, who asked political questions.

АП: How did everything end up? When did they release you? Did they draw up a protocol on you?

ЕЖ: After three hours they said that "we're going to your house now, all together." Again, no documents, no acts that permit doing this, they showed nothing at all. I was still saying that "let's do it some other time, we're already very tired" – "No, right now, or otherwise we'll act somehow," again "we'll put [you] somewhere, we'll put everyone, we'll take everyone, detain [everyone]." In general, they went to our place right after the police station and spent another hour there walking around and sniffing something out, searching for something. They called phones again, looked for my phone or Varya's phone. When they understood that two SIM cards, Varya's and mine, were in one phone, they just took the phone from me by force, just yanked it out of my hands. This was [done by] that man – I think he was specifically from "Center E." He started reading all the chats.

When we were driving from the police station home, I wrote to Sonya to tidy up the apartment because, I said, "someone is coming with us now," and I wrote to her to put the laptop away.

They started looking for the laptop, and this guy was still telling Mzhelskaya: "Oh, that's it, we'll find it now!" As far as I understood, they were trying to find something or somehow make me talk to charge me with this article, but something wasn't working out for them. And now they found out that, turns out, I hid the laptop somewhere, and "now we'll find everything, now we'll draw up a protocol."

АП: They didn't present any documents proving that a search was needed in your house?

ЕЖ: None at all, they didn't even introduce themselves, what their names were, they didn't even say their names.

АП: I understand that they didn't find anything at your place?

ЕЖ: They didn't find anything like that. They had complaints about the "Siren" and "OVD-Info" chats in Telegram, in the laptop – why exactly these ones, what this is and how one can generally read such things.

They took photos at home. I love yellow color, we have a lot of yellow color at home: flower pots, yellow and blue curtains. This was [hung up] before [the start of the full-scale war], these curtains have been hanging for a long time – it just happened that they're yellow and blue colors. They wrote all this in their protocol of inspection act: that yellow-blue curtains, yellow pot... I can also send you this excerpt.

АП: Yes, yes, please send it.

ЕЖ: That there are materials of extremist content in the laptop. "Siren," "OVD-Info," what they dug up there – for them this is "extremist content." They found a photo of Arestovich on "VKontakte": there was a March 8th greeting card there, someone congratulated me on March 8th, this card remained. This is the heaviest thing they found. But I understood that 20.3.3 doesn't weigh, these things don't weigh for this article. They said that "we didn't find anything now, but we'll check all your networks and we'll see you again."

When they were already leaving, they gave me a protocol. They gave me only three documents in total. Actually, it turns out, two: one document on two sheets – a protocol for bringing Varya to the police station, and on the next page there was a place where I should put my signature, that I received a copy of the protocol. This was one document on two sheets. And another document – a determination to transfer this Material by jurisdiction, to the Commission for Juvenile Affairs. They were at our house for about an hour.

Two weeks later they called from KDN, from the Commission for Juvenile Affairs, invited me to the commission and said that I must appear on such-and-such day. I ask them: "Do I need to bring Varya with me?" They left me a protocol, drawn up for Varya, and said that "we'll put [her] on preventive registration." And I ask: "Is Varya needed at this commission?" They tell me: "No, not needed." I don't understand how she's not needed if you drew up a protocol for her, and here you don't need her. They tell me in this commission that the protocol was drawn up for you.

I was very surprised then: how is it for me? I don't remember such a protocol, didn't see it. I came to them the next morning to familiarize myself with the case materials. They didn't give me all the case materials so I could sit leafing through, looking. They copied some part themselves, fastened it, handed it to me, saying: "Here, familiarize yourself." I decided to flip through, didn't find the delivery protocol drawn up for Varya.

The protocol is indeed for me, which I didn't see at all. Moreover, on one sheet the text of the protocol is printed on a printer, and the second sheet, on which it's written that "received a copy of the protocol," is that second sheet from Varya's protocol. That is, they replaced it. Did I explain clearly?

АП: Well, yes, yes.

ЕЖ: I [later] went to the police, wrote an application to familiarize myself with the materials. I needed to see where this delivery protocol is – we still can't find the original. They put it somewhere and don't show it, because there where "received a copy of the protocol" will be the same my signature, the same text as on this protocol. In general, they're cheating like this there.

Then I came to the Commission for Juvenile Affairs to consider this protocol administratively. The motive for drawing up the protocol was written there. You know what this is? I can also send it. In general, the main motive there for drawing up the protocol was – "Mom doesn't monitor daughter's publications on social networks." Well and, possibly, something about the avatar was there, now I don't remember, there's something about the avatar or not. And at the commission they mainly considered that my children didn't attend "Conversations about Important Things." That is, not even according to the protocol, as it were.

АП: Please tell me, what's happening now? What was the result of this commission?

ЕЖ: A lawyer came with me, whom "OVD-Info" assigned to me. They didn't allow him to defend. That is, they didn't even deliberate there, they already had a ready decision. They talked about something there, there were many people. They found me guilty under article 5.35 of the Administrative Code "For improper fulfillment of parental duties" and issued a warning. And the second part of the ruling was to put our family on preventive registration at the Commission, or whatever it's properly called, and to oblige us to attend, attend some... In general, so that this "Harmony," this "My Family Center 'Harmony'" would compose a plan for social support or psychological-social support of our family until November 8. October 25 was this commission, it was written "until November 8."

We filed a complaint about the ruling and an administrative lawsuit regarding the second part of the ruling in court. The case there is scheduled to be heard for the first time on December 7. They called me from this family center "Harmony," I told them that since the ruling didn't come into legal force, since I filed a complaint, let's not communicate with you for now, let's wait. But they still come anyway, come home, put such papers in the door that "people from 'My Family Center Harmony' came to you," urgently call back.

АП: You said that they didn't let the lawyer in with you, right?

ЕЖ: They let him into the room, but the word... They didn't allow him to defend me. They didn't kick him out of the room, since it's an open hearing. He somehow prompted me periodically, but still it's not the same.

АП: Did they somehow explain this, why the lawyer can't defend you?

ЕЖ: They explained this by saying that I don't have a power of attorney for him. They were wrong. I don't know why they didn't allow it, didn't want to or...

АП: That is, essentially, this is also a violation of rights.

ЕЖ: Yes, yes. Moreover, this lawyer asked to take a protocol from them, and in the protocol they wrote that they allowed [him], can you imagine?

АП: That is, complete violation, from all sides.

ЕЖ: Yes, yes. Well, there's a lot there, each of their actions was a violation. These "Conversations about Important Things"... I read the law on education, these FOSes [editor's note: federal state educational standards], there [extracurricular activities are] by choice. The child and parents, all participants in the educational process choose extracurricular activities for themselves. They call to the police because you didn't come there a couple of times.

АП: What's happening at school now? How did what happened affect your daughter, her learning process, her condition?

ЕЖ: When this happened on the 5th, when police came for Varya, at that moment I understood that one shouldn't go to these lessons at all officially. For me this was, on the contrary, some kind of push about the danger of these lessons, since they're pulling everyone to them like this. On October 10th, I think it was the following Monday, I printed out a document that the "Teachers Alliance" distributed, about refusing such lessons. I sent this refusal of mine through the children. But the teachers still... And I started making doctor appointments for the children on Mondays so I'd have some official excuse from these lessons.

And the children... This situation damaged the school's reputation for them. They started not wanting to go to school. They're such excellent students for me, school always pleased them, and now... Now more than a month has passed, now it's somehow recovering. But the first week after this police day, even the first-second week, I was just persuading them to go to school. We didn't always make it to school, we went to a psychologist, to a doctor. Varya started treating teachers not as people who need to be respected – now she has some kind of squeamish attitude. I hope that this is specifically toward a narrow circle of teachers, not toward everyone, and not toward all adults in general.

Their homeroom teacher, who wrote this complaint about her, which is what started all this...

АП: Let me clarify: the first complaint was from the teacher, and the second from the principal?

ЕЖ: Yes. The first from the teacher, this teacher is their homeroom teacher. And this teacher of theirs, she teaches mathematics, they have a math class. Varya just doesn't want to go to these lessons, probably hates this teacher. She tells me that "I don't want to go to math." And she always had everything good in mathematics and everything always worked out, good grades. Now she says: "I don't want to." I ask her: "Because of what? Did mathematics bore you or what?" – "Because of the teacher."

АП: Didn't you have thoughts of changing schools in connection with this?

ЕЖ: I had such a thought. But we have, you know, not particularly many schools nearby. Such a fairly new district. The schools were combined, here two schools belong to one – they have one principal. One school is different, but they don't take [students] there in the middle of the year, "we'll only take [you] in summer," and there are no more schools. I don't have the possibility to drive somewhere far. In general, I don't know. I want to leave here altogether somewhere farther, I have such a plan. Hope that we'll just leave.

АП: Please tell me, did you discuss what happened with the parents of Varya's classmates?

ЕЖ: No, I didn't discuss it. They finished elementary school last year, four grades. Now it's fifth grade, they have all new children [in the class], all new parents. I somehow communicated with one mom. Varya is friends with several girls, they went to one's birthday, I communicated with the mom. We communicated well, it seemed to me that she knows about this situation. She tried to talk with me – it seemed to me that she wants to indirectly support me like this. But I haven't seen anyone else, haven't talked. It seems to me that even many don't know what happened there.

АП: That is, this isn't discussed in the class at all? ЕЯ: No. I somehow asked Varya: "Varya, find out from your classmates whose parents wrote about you or reported on you." I thought, in general, maybe it's not true. If children say: "My parents didn't write anything," then there was nothing at all, which means the teachers just made up such a pretext to somehow attack, to do something bad. There should have been some reason. Non-attendance at school, at any subject, is not punishable. There's no such article at all to punish either children or parents for a student not attending school. Well, they don't attend and don't attend - we'll check their academic performance, give them a "2", that's it, right? For me, it was always like this. When I was little, and now I look at children who often skip school - this never worried anyone. But here suddenly they skipped two lessons and immediately to the police.

АП: You said that you asked Varya to ask the children whose parents could have done this. Didn't you try to find this out yourself? Or wasn't there such a possibility?

ЕЯ: I don't have such a possibility. I tried with the teachers, but they specifically don't say: "A collective of parents, we won't tell." They start making up some law about information - that you can't distribute personal data. But you tell them that "I'll just look and find out who it is." What would I do, distribute this personal data? No and that's it, we won't give it, "a collective of parents." We tried to find out orally like this - no one says anything.

АП: Were there those in the school who supported you and Varya in this situation? Teachers, children, some employees?

ЕЯ: No. When they were taking Varya and me out of there [from school], there were people standing there - moms, dads who came for their children, waiting for them there near the porch. I started shouting to them: "Someone record this on video!" Well, because this is an extraordinary situation - next to the school they're dragging a child and mom like this. I would definitely have taken out my phone and started filming, I didn't even need to be told about this.

And I started shouting to these people: "Someone film this!" - and then it seemed to me as if a little sparrow chirped something. They turned their heads and continued with their phones, writing something there... That is, no one was interested in this situation. No, I didn't see such [sympathetic] people here.

АП: What's happening in the school now after the publicity? You do talk a lot with media and draw attention to this situation.

ЕЯ: Nothing new is happening. As far as I know, some people talked with me like you, for instance. They also wanted to talk with the school afterwards, they tried to contact either the class teacher, or the principal, or the school administration, and no one answers them.

АП: Did you have a conversation with the principal or with the class teacher? Did you try to talk with them after these denunciations?

ЕЯ: I didn't try to talk with the principal, I tried to talk with the class teacher. I called her: "I want to come with Varya and talk with you." I had some questions that I wanted to ask her in Varya's presence, so she would explain to me and Varya. At first she was like: "Oh, let's do it next week." She told me, for instance, "Next week" - [supposedly] she'll call on Monday. She didn't call. I called her again, asked when we would meet. She said that she won't meet with me alone, only in the presence of a psychologist and social worker, in such company.

I also asked her, why do you need a psychologist and social pedagogue if I want to talk with you as the class teacher of my daughter - "No, I won't do it alone, only with these people." I also asked her: "When you were writing this complaint about my Varya - the one dated the 27th - did you consult with the social pedagogue or with the psychologist at all before writing such a thing to the principal?" She said: "No, I didn't consult. I decided everything myself." But now she can't talk with me herself. And then I called her again, [she] didn't pick up the phone. Well, that's it, our communication - this was still at the end of October - ended there.

АП: The story about your daughters not attending these "Conversations about Important Things" - is this some unique case for the school? Do all other children go there?

ЕЯ: I don't know about this. We don't have any connections with parents, I can't find this out. In September, when they [my daughters] were going at 9 o'clock, I saw other children who go at 9 o'clock. That is, there were children who were just now going to school - which means they were skipping. And I saw quite a lot of children. Now it's just cold, I can't track it - I drive them by car, they quickly run in. Maybe they [my daughters] convinced someone not to go. I don't know how all this happens.

АП: That is, there are no parent chats where this could be discussed?

ЕЯ: No.

АП: Did Varya's relationships with classmates change after this? Did the children react somehow to what happened?

ЕЯ: I think they didn't change. In September, when they just started going to school, she befriended several girls. And they still are friends until now. They know that Varya was talked about in the news, and they somehow don't [react] at all. It's cool for the children, they didn't say anything bad and don't say anything to her, they're friends as usual.

I understood that they, the girls, are by themselves, and the boys are by themselves. They don't have such a united friendly class - some groups. Her group, they continue to be friends like that. She has a birthday soon, she's inviting these girlfriends, and someone has already agreed, said they'll come.

АП: The school probably has parent meetings. Are you planning to raise this question there and discuss what happened with parents and teachers?

ЕЯ: I somehow don't remember us having parent meetings. There's no such thing now. After the pandemic, I think, all this went away. There haven't been any meetings even online yet. Last year there were a couple of times online meetings with the class teacher, this year there aren't.

The school principal herself, or her deputy, mainly the principal, conducts online broadcasts once a week, dedicated to specific topics. You can connect to the broadcast, you can just write a question in messages, and they'll answer this question. And I remember when this happened on October 5th, it was Wednesday, the next week the broadcast, I think, was just cancelled. Well, and in general, the next week the principal, she closed comments, all her personal pages on VKontakte, on Facebook, everywhere. Because good people started writing everything they think about her in the comments. For about two weeks there were no broadcasts at all.

Then, two weeks later the deputy principal, her deputy, conducted these broadcasts, a couple of broadcasts. I wrote, my friends, acquaintances wrote messages that concern Varya's case, but these messages are deleted, they don't comment on them at all.

АП: Can't you ask her a question in the live broadcast?

ЕЯ: You can, but probably they don't let people into the live broadcast just randomly. They filter anyway, whom to let into the broadcast.

АП: Are you planning to continue investigating this situation, reaching the principal or doing something else?

ЕЯ: Well, just to personally go to the principal, I don't even know... Everything is clear to me about her, I absolutely clearly understand why and what for she's doing this. Meet with her and what? Surely she'll evade and lie, tell me about some lofty things. I'm now dealing with the fact that we filed complaints about those two rulings that the commission issued on the 25th. We will also file a lawsuit against the police for illegal detention of a minor and a lawsuit against the school, that this whole situation happened at all. A lawyer from OVD-Info is helping me, I trusted them. They even filed a complaint to the UN, to the Committee on the Rights of the Child.

АП: But you're not planning to change schools yet?

ЕЯ: I just don't see the possibility of changing schools. I'm planning to, but not today, but maybe in a couple of months.

АП: You said you're planning to leave. That is, in a couple of months you think you'll already move somewhere?

Elena Zhuliiker: Well yes, that's why I'm saying that simply all this will be timed... If there was another school nearby, I would have done just that - there's no such school nearby. Then, Varya and Sonya now, now for them... Well, it seems to me, this is somehow... how to say this... somehow... well, weakness... I don't want them [school staff] to sense weakness in me and in my children. That is, if I transfer to another school now... I even think that this is what they want, for us to transfer to another school... it seems to me, somehow I'll feel uncomfortable that we just took and transferred, and left them there with this question.

Let them better transfer to some other school. This Bulaeva, it seems to me, is generally unworthy not only of being a school principal, but simply even of working with children. Some deviations, it seems to me, there are - to write statements to the police simply because of a picture, a 10-year-old girl...

АП: After the detention did the school try to contact you?

ЕЯ: No.

АП: That is, they took you away from there and that's it, the school didn't interact with you anymore?

ЕЯ: Yes, yes.

АП: Please tell me, how did you discuss the situation with your daughter? After all, surely this was a strong stress for her. Did she ask you any questions? How did you talk about this?

ЕЯ: Well, it seems to me she understands everything. She understands that something wrong is happening with our state. That day at 7 in the morning she had breakfast, went to school, they pulled her out of class, took her to the police. At about six in the evening, probably, they left us. She didn't eat, didn't drink anything at all.

Then everyone left, and I carefully ask her: "Varya, tell me, what are your thoughts? Tell me, what do you think about all this?" She smiled and told me: "We need to get out of here." That is, this is 10 years [old]. I said: "I understand, I understand."

I tried not to show that I was worried about all this, but... I didn't tell her that there would be a commission. She saw this anyway: that I'm collecting documents, that I'm talking with a lawyer, discussing something with him. She had such thoughts - she comes up to me and says: "Mom, won't they take me away from you?..." - just like that, completely seriously. These were her questions... But now a month has passed, now it's somehow calmed down. She writes me a message a couple of days ago, or recorded a voice message: "Mom!" - so joyful. - "Mom, they put me on record!"

АП: What do you mean? Did they put her on record at school? At the police?

ЕЯ: I don't know. There's also some internal school record - maybe they put her on that record.

АП: You didn't discuss this?

ЕЯ: With the school - no.

АП: No, with Varya. What kind of record is this?

ЕЯ: Well, I asked her: "What kind of record is this?" She says: "I don't know." I say: "And what now?" She says: "I don't know," - well, just like that simply.

АП: Did all this affect your younger daughter somehow?

ЕЯ: The younger daughter also refused to go to school for the first two weeks after this October 5th. She refused even more than Varya: "I don't want to go there. There are some mean aunties and uncles there." I [successfully] persuaded Varya to go to school, but Sonya would cry and "No." We went looking for some doctor for her to talk with her about this situation.

АП: That is, both girls went to a psychologist after all this?

ЕЯ: Yes, I took both to a psychologist. I felt that Sonya was more frightened by this situation, but the psychologist said that no, after all Varya got more of it. I don't know how things will be there.

АП: How did you manage to convince the girls that they need to continue going to school?

ЕЯ: Mmm... I don't know how. With some persuasion, with some... expectation of something good... I tell them that "you don't go to school for the teachers, for yourselves." They have friends there... Somehow like that, I don't know, childishly.

АП: That is, the next day after what happened they went?

ЕЯ: This happened on Wednesday, I was still in some fog for two more days. I didn't understand at all what happened, as if I was in a dream. And they, it seems to me, too. We were like robots on Thursday and Friday. This haze cleared for me on Saturday, probably. I then started talking with my friend about what happened, he told me: "Write to OVD-Info." And on Saturday I somehow came to my senses from this.

And on Thursday-Friday I didn't understand at all what was happening to me, what this was, what happened to my children. I got up mechanically, we didn't even talk properly. I drove them to school, I was doing something myself, work or something else, and like that for two days. Then I somehow understood in general what had happened, and... On Monday, after the weekend, they told me that "no, we don't want to go anywhere." At night one of them would wake up – I was nervous, my nervous state, maybe it was transmitted to them, maybe they didn't understand what was happening... We had a week of such sleepless nights.

I was very worried. I myself get some message from Sonya's teacher, I have a panic attack: my pulse jumps, my heart pounds. I went to the doctor, they said: "Yes, tachycardia, but this isn't a bad physical condition of the heart, you just need to remove all the conditions that stress you. Everything that makes you nervous, that causes stress, you need to get rid of this." Well thanks...

АП: When you found out about the screenshots from the chat, about the avatar, did you talk to Varya about this? Why did she write something in the chat? Did she actually write this herself or was it some kind of setup? Didn't you ask her to remove the avatar?

ЕЖ: When they told me about the avatar, I myself didn't understand what was wrong with this avatar. And I asked these teachers: "What's wrong with it, tell me? I need to somehow justify to the child what's wrong with this avatar." How will I tell her? "Remove the avatar, put up another one"? We don't have that kind of thing, I don't command children what to do, what not to do. I need to somehow justify it. And they, the teachers: "Well you... – and hee-hee-hee. – Well if you're not against it, then okay." They didn't say anything, didn't say that there was a Ukrainian flag in the back, there was nothing like that. They didn't say that something was written there. Just: "Well, if you're not against it..." I would still ask them these questions to this day. No one has ever said what was wrong there.

And regarding the chat – on the same day when they called me, in the evening I saw Varya, I asked her: "Give me your phone." I didn't tell her: "Give me your phone to look at your chat." Well and I understand that there are somehow few messages there, I ask: "What did you write yesterday?" She says: "Our messages get reset, that is, there are no yesterday's messages."

I say: "What was there?" She told me that someone, some boy, started a conversation first about Zelensky, and they all discussed it. What, in what sequence, which exact messages, naturally, she doesn't remember – approximately this and that. She wrote something, but what exactly, she also doesn't [remember] word for word. She says: "Everyone wrote, not just me. Everyone wrote and not just one message each." Not all 30 people, but there was some group there discussing.

I, of course, in the police, wrote that this wasn't Varya at all, there were no messages and in general she lost her phone, doesn't know where the phone is. But when I ask Varya – she herself doesn't remember what exact words she wrote there.

АП: You talked about how you took her phone away. This was already after these screenshots appeared, right?

ЕЖ: Well yes. They called me in the first half of the day from school and said that yesterday Varya wrote something there. That same evening I took [the phone] from Varya, I say: "Don't take it to school. Let it lie at home, don't take it, don't write anything there." That's kind of how I said it. And then, after October 5th, I threw her SIM card somewhere, so that no one would call her. Because they kept calling her: the police had her phone number, they called, these "E"-people, they were looking for either her or my phone there. I even pulled out this SIM card and it's lying around somewhere.

АП: Probably the last question. When the war began, how did you talk to the children about what was happening? How did they react to what was happening?

ЕЖ: There weren't any special conversations like that. When it all started, I remember that I cried every day. They probably saw all of this. And everyone was somehow... well, not special, just somehow... Well, let's say, when they bombed the maternity ward there... Well that is, I had some real... well almost hysteria. And I watched the news... Well of course, you just tell them "war is bad," like that. I think they just understand themselves that this is wrong.

They know that I don't like Putin. From early childhood, when they asked me, "Who is Putin?", I always told them that "Putin is a crab," to joke around in a childish way. I didn't even explain to them who he was. They know my attitude toward everything.

They're children, and they already have their own interests on YouTube, these "Likes," TikToks... They're fans, you know, there's this Anton Pikuli [editor's note: Anton Pikuli is a YouTube blogger and comedian who makes reviews of Russian propaganda]. Both daughters, they just go crazy for this Anton: "When will his next episode come out?" And when he swears, I don't let them watch. Then they found out that now they started bleeping out all these words.

The environment, of course, has an influence. This principal, she was essentially right that if children behave this way, then you need to look for something in the parents. But taking children hostage for this – well somehow in general, it goes beyond all boundaries.

ЕЖ: There are parents who, in connection with what's happening now, ask children to be more careful, forbid them from writing anything at all. How do you feel about this? Did you have some kind of conversation, maybe you asked your daughter to be more careful? Or do you think this is wrong?

ЕЖ: I think this is wrong, I never said that. But on October 5th we sat down and talked about how they shouldn't say anything, write anything, ask anything, in general to leave those places where they talk about politics, or about Ukraine, or about some other such close topics. But I think this is wrong. I say: "Don't say anything – later we'll move somewhere, you'll say what you want."

АП: How did the girls react to this?

ЕЖ: I think with understanding. Especially Varya.

АП: Do I understand correctly that you're planning to leave abroad?

ЕЖ: Yes.

АП: And the girls support you in this?

ЕЖ: Yes, of course. Well how do they support? What difference does it make to them? Of course, they have some friends here, they say they'll miss them, but in general, it seems to me they also want... They're like this with me, you know, easy-going. We go somewhere, travel. If I tell them: "Oh, let's go there?", they're always "for" going somewhere. I don't know, I haven't heard from them that they don't want to go somewhere – of course they want to.

АП: Can you share your plans in a bit more detail, where and when you're planning to leave?

ЕЖ: I can share with you, but not for print.

АП: Okay.

ЕЖ: [...]

АП: Probably the very last question. Why is it important for you to make public what happened, considering that this isn't exactly safe right now in Russia?

ЕЖ: It seems to me that it would be more dangerous for me if there wasn't such publicity. I think that this Bulaeva, for example, she started behaving a bit more restrained...

АП: How does this manifest?

ЕЖ: ...after such publicity. Well how to say... Even in that they closed their [social media] pages, closed comments. They don't call me every day, don't write... Both Sonya's and Varya's teacher could write to me, and some other deputy principal wrote to me, was finding out something. And now they don't do this.

I think that such teachers and such principals, in general they shouldn't exist, they're taking someone's place. This isn't the first school where we've studied, I've communicated with many teachers and principals, but for them to behave like this – I'm seeing this for the first time.

АП: Yes, really impressive.

ЕЖ: This isn't publicity about me or Varya. What's important to me is publicity that such a principal exists in such-and-such school.

АП: Yes, really impressive...

Thank you for the conversation! If any clarifications arise, I'll write to you. I'm waiting for your photos. When the publication comes out, I'll send it to you.

ЕЖ: Goodbye. Thank you.

АП: Yes, thank you, goodbye.