They put a bag over my head. A pink, new one

ЕН: Elena Naumova

АП: Anna Pavlova

АП: The first thing I want to start our conversation with – you are now one of the most popular women in Ukraine, one of the most popular public figures.

ЕН: That's very loudly said, really.

АП: Well listen, all of TikTok is talking about you, at least. Let's start with you telling us how you generally decided to make TikTok videos. Why did you come to this? How did it happen?

ЕН: I work in kindergarten, and next to me there are, well, very many young girls. Well, I just noticed that they were, oh... very, so to speak, hooked on some... on some interesting site. And when I asked: "What is this?" – they say: "Oh, Vyacheslavovna, this is TikTok." I say: "And what is this?" – "And this," they say, "is such a social network, well, mainly for young people." I just looked through it, thinking about what they... what... what they watch, and there, it turns out, there's [content] by interests. Whatever a person chooses, whatever they like – then TikTok sends them a lot of interesting videos and materials on this topic. Well, I decided, I think: yes, I'll register. Just interesting, what people are talking about, what they think, what they share, what talents they have. Well, at first I decided to call my account "Poems to Order," since I've been writing poems all my life and there were such moments when people asked me to write congratulations, there, some script. Well, I think: maybe I'll be able to earn money from this. But, unfortunately, this theme didn't take off. Then I just switched to my main work – working with children. The little ones also became interested, why does Vyacheslavovna sometimes look into the phone there. And I have a humor theme, it's very close to me, because I'm such a person with humor in life. And when the show "Make the Comedian Laugh" appeared on 1+1, I tried to participate in it. My first attempt was not very successful, but I was still glad that they showed me on television, even though I lost in the first minute. And then I had such a thought – to involve children in this process. I asked the parents. The parents say: "Oh, we don't mind, Vyacheslavovna, let's do it." And we tried to perform with the kids on "Make the Comedian Laugh." It worked out... The thing is, it was an adult season, and the appearance of children, it was somehow such, you know, unpredictable, somehow unusual. Even the editors eventually understood that this was very interesting, and they then created a season, a children's season of "Make the Comedian Laugh." And so I involved my little ones, with the help of parents, we went to Kyiv, the kids performed, they were shown on television. We earned money. We transferred part of the money to those in need. Just this theme was interesting to me. I'm such a person in life, you know, a humorist, the soul of any company. And, well, somehow it became close to me.

And when the war began, we stopped working, I stopped seeing the children. I completely switched to the war theme. I was very worried and conducted streams from Kherson, told the whole world what was happening here, shared my emotions, impressions, tried to support people. The entire occupation, six months, right up to my captivity, until August 23, I conducted streams three times a day. In between streams I was engaged in volunteering. My subscribers on air convinced me to collect money that they threw on my card during streams, I found people who needed help: pensioners, disabled people, large families, single mothers, displaced persons. I checked documents, asked: "Cover the series and passport number or certificate." I checked registration, whether this certificate of a large family or disabled person was real. I transferred this money to people's cards – not only in Kherson, but also in Kherson Oblast.

АП: Did these people approach you themselves? Or how did you find them?

ЕН: Some themselves. At first I helped my circle, people, pensioners on my street, those in need at my workplace. Then I started going to the site "Humanitarian Aid. Kherson." There was an excellent team there that supported [people] throughout the entire occupation. They obtained products, medicines and distributed one hundred packages of products and medicines every day at their point. I would go to this site, look at who was begging for help, just pleading for help. I checked documents. If these were really real people, I transferred money to them. And then from May 1 in Kherson our "Oshchadbank" closed. A significant part of pensioners received money in cash at this bank, and after that they were left simply without means of subsistence. Therefore, I collected some amounts on cards and cashed them out. We had money changers in Kherson, to whom we transferred money to the card, and they gave us cash. And therefore I gave cash to people, directly gave live money into their hands or bought products.

АП: That is, to those pensioners whom you knew?

ЕН: Even those I didn't know. Even on the street people walked in the evening, and we talked... Here walked three pensioner ladies, I say: "Do you receive money from Ukraine?" They say: "We get it at the bank, but this woman doesn't get it, she has 'Oshchadbank'." So. And I gave such people money directly into their hands.

АП: When you still participated in the show with children, you also transferred money to some foundation or helped someone. Can you tell about this in a bit more detail?

ЕН: Yes, yes, yes, we had a boy with cancer in kindergarten. And after we performed with Sonya and Misha, we there, left [money] for the children for gifts, and the remaining amount we transferred to this child for treatment. But, unfortunately, the boy didn't survive. It was a big tragedy. Well, that's the step we took. And the parents were not against it: "Yes-yes, Vyacheslavovna, of course." We left the kids literally a small amount for toys, and the main amount we transferred to that child. This is money that we earned on "Make the Comedian Laugh."

Well, I also before the war, you know, I always, if I have an extra kopeck... An employee [of kindergarten] had a boy – disabled from birth. She constantly took him to Kyiv for rehabilitation. Each time I transferred sometimes five hundred hryvnias, sometimes a thousand hryvnias from myself.

Then, my ex-husband's sister, she's disabled, she's been in a wheelchair for twenty years, she didn't go out [on the street]. Well what wheelchair? Only sitting. I bought her in Kherson, though used, but an electric wheelchair for eight and a half thousand, sent it to her. She was very happy. In general, even though I'm divorced from my husband, I constantly helped this family: for all birthdays, for holidays, just to pay for gas. I know that they live very hard.

Well, if I saw some announcement, need to help a child for surgery, I always allocated some amount, in order to transfer to this little child, so that they could live. Well, somehow like this always, all my life I tried. I see – someone feels bad at the market, someone can't...

During the occupation I meet a woman, she walks, and she has several coins in her hand. She says: "And where could I buy some bread?" I take her by the hand, lead her, buy her products, give her money to take with her, because she's a displaced person from Aleksandrovka, and that's a village in Belozersky district, it's completely bombed. The woman lived with an acquaintance, and it was clear that she was hungry, dry... well, so dried up. Well, it was just pitiful to look at her. I always stopped such people at the market, and from my own money, not from those that the guys sent me from all over Ukraine, from all over the world, namely from my own money I helped such people – well, so as not to report, there were no receipts here. You understand that prices at the market were lower than in stores in these, Russified ones. In this way I helped almost until captivity, because then such alarming signals began that volunteers are being taken, they're hunting volunteers, taking them "to the basement." And then there were restrictions in banks on transfers – either a hundred transfers, or a hundred thousand [hryvnias]. And we collected more than half a million rubles (so stated – editor's note).

АП: You mean – half a million rubles your subscribers transferred to you?

ЕН: Hryvnias, hryvnias, hryvnias.

АП: Oh, hryvnias, yes-yes-yes. Sorry.

ЕН: Oh, rubles – that's nonsense. Yes, more than half a million hryvnias only officially passed through my cards back and forth. This is the money that ordinary Ukrainians collected and our... and those in Ukraine, and those who turned out to be abroad, and our friends from Israel, from America, from Italy, Spain. From many countries they just sent me some little kopeck, and we distributed to people. Because prices in occupation are terrible! Medicines were three, four times more expensive. And even then they were imported from Crimea. Well, they were very poor quality, so to say, things.

АП: Did someone help you? Or did you handle all this alone?

ЕН: I tried to manage alone. But when people from villages approached me, there I had helpers appear – local leaders, activists, who indicated which people needed help. I transferred money to their card, they bought products, delivered packages, sent me videos, reported. Or they just gave coordinates of people to whom it was necessary to transfer money to the card for treatment, for food, in order to leave, just for moving from occupied territory, because this was also very expensive. They called me, they say: "Here are two bedridden disabled people. To take them out, money is needed." There's a family – two disabled people, two children, two adults. And it was necessary to hire two cars. We paid. Eight thousand we gave for gasoline to people, so they could take these people out of occupation. And there were very many such cases.

АП: Tell me, please, when the war began and there was still the possibility to leave, why didn't you leave?

ЕН: You know, I believed all the time that this horror would end any moment, that ours would gather strength and liberate Kherson. I couldn't abandon Kherson. I always said: "And who will meet our guys? We will meet them." And then, people here needed help. One subscriber wrote to me: "You have a baby dying in the regional hospital there, an orphan, newborn." My God, I... Our transport only ran until three o'clock, and this was in the evening, at eight o'clock. I just caught a car on the street, a taxi. We went with the taxi driver to the hospital, found this child. There he was not alone, there were two children there. I asked: "What do you need?" They told me: "These and these medicines." The next day I just ran around all the pharmacies, already Russian ones, bought the necessary things and brought them. And it was like this twice. Then there were babies there who were left without parents – well, abandoned children. They just got stuck in this system during the war, and they lived in the hospital. We also helped them with baby food and diapers. I bought all this, brought it to the hospital, always asked: "How are the children?" They didn't show them to me, because it's against the rules, but said: "The children are very good. Everything's normal. Growing, developing."

АП: These were abandoned children who were simply [to go] to an orphanage...

ЕН: Whom mothers abandoned, yes. They are usually moved after the maternity hospital to the regional children's hospital, while they arrange documents for them to be adopted. But with the beginning of war this system just stopped, and children just lived eight months in the hospital.

АП: And did you continue to communicate with the children who were in your kindergarten, who were probably taken away?

ЕН: Well, we, yes, we continued to work online. We filmed small videos with classes, with some stories. We sent them to our Viber groups, to Telegram, to WhatsApp. I don't remember what we had there anymore. Well, half the children left, half stayed in Kherson. So I almost didn't meet them face to face. A couple times I met my little ones, hugged them, squeezed them, to tears just, as I missed them. It was offensive. Senior group, we were preparing them for school, and here's such a moment when we already started reading, writing little by little. And this process was cut off.

АП: Tell me, please, what happened in August, when there was captivity?

ЕН: And in August... Well, they always said to me in streams: "Aren't you afraid?" I say: "You know, people, if at gunpoint they force me to say something wrong – know that it's not me." Well, threats came constantly – all six months while I was doing TikTok. Constantly threats from Russian bots and from Russian military.

АП: You mentioned military. Did they come to you? Or how was it arranged?

ЕН: Yes, police came to me allegedly to say to be careful, that robberies are happening nearby, to warn the neighbors. And then, when they showed me on television from the rally, there, where I sang songs, they showed fragments of my TikTok in the telemarathon with my stories about Kherson. There were such moments that I felt I needed to hide. Several times I just lived at relatives', hiding there for five, for seven days. But the last time when I hid, I then reported that I was already home, and literally the next day they came for me. Military came in balaclavas, with machine guns. They entered the house, without warning conducted a search, looked for weapons. I say: "Are you serious? I'm an educator. What weapons do I have?" – "Well let's go for a ride." I say: "On what matter?" He says: "You know, Elena Vyacheslavovna, on what matter. Take some water, cookies. We'll talk for half a day, then we'll bring you back." I took a spare phone. I prepared for such a case, on the second phone I also started TikTok. There I had... well, there were calls, there were messages, all sorts of things. Well, a "live" phone. I just played it safe. But when I arrived there, they immediately understood... "Give me the phone." They immediately understood that this wasn't the right phone. They say: "This isn't the right phone." I say: "Well how is it not the right phone?" – "This isn't your phone."

АП: That is, it was practically empty, yes?

ЕН: Well how empty? It's not empty, it's working. I had two working phones. But on this phone there was no Ukrainian symbolism, there were no correspondences with my friends. You understand? And when they came, I saw through the window, the dog barked, I turned off the main phone and threw it under the wardrobe. And they, it turns out, listened to my streams. The evening before, when I said that I returned home, I started a stream, as usual, at nine in the evening. In half an hour the internet disappeared, they jammed me. I didn't pay attention. In the morning the same thing – at eight o'clock, as usual, started my morning tea with all of Ukraine, in half an hour again the internet cut off. I think: somehow strange. And they drove up in fifteen minutes. In short, I threw this phone... And in captivity they tell me: "Where's the second phone?" I say: "I drowned it yesterday in the toilet." They say: "Don't lie, you were on air half an hour ago." And then the threats began, terrible threats, you know... Well, I understood that the matter was very serious, that they really could carry out their threats. I said where my second phone was.

АП: What did they tell you?

ЕН: They told me that: "We'll break your arms and legs now. We'll give you to the bums. We'll connect you to electric current. We'll..." This... How is it called? Oh... "Pour mounting foam in one place." Well, you understood, yes?

АП: Nightmare!

ЕН: I said where the phone was. They went, returned, did another search. They took a bunch of my notebooks and the neighbors', because our house has two owners. They brought this phone. And then the interrogations began: "Who else like you roots for Ukraine? Who is such an extremist?" I say: "I don't know. Everything that exists is in TikTok." – "Who, who is there in Kherson?" And then I, well, when they began too, very strongly to pressure, I named just the names of those people who definitely left, I know, and left long ago. They double-checked, then got psychotic, nervous, said: "Here we are with you the good way, here we don't beat women your age." And then... And I'm sitting with my back [to them], and also constantly looking around. They say: "Don't look around." And then two more pig-dogs fly in, and one of them shouts: "Ah, here she is!" – and smacked me across the face with full force! And I from unexpectedness burst into tears. They said they wouldn't beat me. And then, when I kept looking around, they say: "Don't look around!" They put a bag on my head again, with which I then was all this time. Sooo. And they began to torture, who are my friends, who... They tied my hands and feet, poured water on me, connected wires to elbow bends, clips, threatened to connect current.

АП: I'll clarify one detail now: did they beat you with current?

ЕН: They wanted to beat me with current, but I... You know, I was scared, and I had to act like I was scared, so that they would think that I really had no relation to the underground or to partisans. And I really had no relation. I cried, said: "I don't know anything! What are you... Ask me, just don't beat me with current. Ask what you want to know." You understand? And they asked their questions. I again gave them some disinformation that was difficult for them to verify. Then they asked where such money movement on the card came from. I explained to them what this was for. They didn't believe: "No, you're a spotter for the Armed Forces of Ukraine! You work for the SBU! You tell where our columns go." I say: "What are you talking about? No, we just help people. People have it hard in occupation." And they don't like volunteers. They needed our people to go for Russian humanitarian aid, for those ten thousand rubles that they distributed left and right. They needed to destroy this our volunteer movement. Although there were masses of volunteers in Kherson – from simple people who just helped neighbors, to those who collected products and delivered them to near and far villages, to hospitals, around the city. This is such a number of people that you can't convey! I'm just one of them, a small grain. Someone fed people in Belozerka, pensioners. I transferred money to them three times for products. Well, I'm saying, masses of such cases, you can't even remember them all. I just wrote in a small notebook to whom I gave money, when and what category it was – either disabled person, or...

АП: You said that they brought notebooks from home. These were just notebooks with these records?

ЕН: Including this notebook too, yes. And they asked me: "What is 'inv'?" I say: "Disabled person." – "And what is 'per'?" – "Displaced person." – "And what is 'b/d'?" – "Bahatodіtna rodyna" [editor's note: Ukrainian for "large family"], – well, large family. They leafed through everything, the whole notebook. They checked all my Telegram, Viber, WhatsApp for four days of interrogations. In Telegram they checked: "And what kind of people are these?" I say: "And these are disabled people, I transferred money to them." – "And what is this?" And there people sent their documents, by which I determined that people needed help. Oh, so they checked everything. Well, they tortured me... found my friends, my... Olegovna and Koshmarik (Ukrainian volunteers – editor's note). They were just in my feed, in several videos. And then, they were in the Telegram channel. And when they connected the dots, they understood that they were in Kherson. And they tortured me, extracted the street name. Well, I said the street name under threat of current, but I didn't say the house number. I think: there's a private sector there. I think: the guys will hear how dogs bark, how orcs drive, and they'll hide or run away. And he tells me: "House number, say the house number!" And I'm sitting in a bag, all wet, and I shout: "I don't know the house number, even if you shoot me!" And then I hear such a blow of a fist on the table and such a shout: "And we will shoot!" I think: Lord, well, either shoot me, or... or this way, or that way. Because this... this is such a shock state that you don't even remember everything that happened there. You understand? The heart pounds, blood pressure jumps, mouth dried out, sugar increased. Well, s-s-scary. And they then said that for all my deeds – this is basement, this is basement. They took me to the basement with a bag on my head, opened the door, shoved me into the cell and said: "Good conditions." I enter the cell – thirty meters the cell, high...

АП: And did they take the bag off you there?

ЕН: Well, they said: "When you enter the middle, you'll take off the bag. But if we knock, you must immediately put on the bag and sit over there, on the chair, with your back to the door." They shoved me in there. I take off the bag and see that the ceilings are four meters, somewhere deep, everything concrete – walls, floor, and ceiling. And there are just two old chairs standing. Nothing else, absolutely nothing. And they gave me water with me, they poured out my water, and gave me some strange water. They said: "Sit on that chair." And then they just mocked me. They knocked on the door – and I nervously threw the bag on my head and heard how they giggled under the door, peeking through the crack. And then they came in – I jumped up with the bag on my head. – "Sit!" I sat. And I see in the darkness... The bag was pink, new. And I see in the darkness the screen of a tablet, some cartoons showing. And only then I realized that one was showing me cartoons, and the second was filming me – how I with a bag on my head watch cartoons.

Then they gave me some strange water. I sat in the corner on the chair, drank this water – and I started having hallucinations. You know, as if some creatures crawl on the floor, some skeletons grow. I look at a crack – a purple caterpillar grows. I look at another crack – a porcupine, skeleton of a porcupine. I look at the wall – and they're pink, and such pink worms slide down. That is, they mixed drugs into my water. And I sat on the chair like this all night. And the next day, when they led me to interrogation, I was just staggering. They asked: "How do you feel?" And I sit with a bag on my head and say: "Some glitches I have, hallucinations," I say, "my head spins strongly." They giggled there. Well and they conducted interrogations again: what, where, when. They interrogated for four days. Then finally they gave me a bucket for the toilet. On the fourth day.

АП: Nightmare. That is, before this there wasn't even a bucket?

ЕН: There wasn't, there wasn't. I found in the garbage there some small plastic boxes from food and plastic bottles. That's how I got by.

АП: Nightmare.

ЕН: Yes.

АП: That is, in this cell there was nothing except a garbage bucket and chairs?

ЕН: Nothing. I'm telling you, there wasn't even a garbage bucket, but there was just a bag from previous prisoners, there were plastic boxes and there was an empty bottle from water. And so I had to get out of the situation. With all this, there were video surveillance cameras in the cell.

АП: Nightmare.

ЕН: That is, this is such humiliation. You can imagine, yes? And I'm in one summer T-shirt, in a summer skirt, absolutely with nothing. And eleven days in this clothing. Well, at first it wasn't cold yet. They had the back door open, upstairs, to the yard, and somehow warmth still passed through. And then there was cooling at the end of summer, and I was very-very strongly cold, lying on the floor.

АП: Terrible.

ЕН: They just didn't take me for interrogations for seven days. Once a day they brought, there, one hundred-two hundred grams of some food – either soldier's stew, a tiny box that was inedible, or then they already started bringing in plastic boxes a two-hundred-gram portion of food, there rice with mushrooms or buckwheat with meat. And I understood that they should have fed us like this all the time – well, even if once a day, but at least all the time. And they gave me their stew, and they themselves ate the food that was intended for prisoners. You understand, if in a pre-trial detention center... Let's say, they scared me with a pre-trial detention center. But I understand that a pre-trial detention center is a more or less official some organization. Well, there... there they register people. There they don't sit with bags on their heads. There are some bunks where you can lie down. There, possibly, they feed more often than once a day. But here this was complete lawlessness, complete lawlessness! I didn't see who interrogated me. They kept me in such inhuman conditions.

That is, this system of basements, this is purely barbaric system toward peaceful people. I understand, military, they have hard work, but they morally... subconsciously they realize that, in principle, they might face captivity, wounds, even die for the Motherland, you understand? But a peaceful person, he's not ready for this nightmare after thirty years of democracy, after we went out to squares when things were bad for us, when we didn't like something. We calmly went out, and police didn't take us, but on the contrary, protected us. That is, we breathed the air of freedom absolutely calmly. Nobody oppressed us, nobody threw us "to the basement" for our different thinking. That's how they tried to break us. I'm telling you, there were hundreds like me, hundreds, not all came out of basements. Many came out, yes, tormented, exhausted, because they beat all young people: both women and men... and men, and elderly, — they beat everyone. Both with current and just beat. My friend — he was in a neighboring cell, — they just beat him all day, then threw him barely alive, handcuffed his hands and feet and also handcuffed him to pipes. He just lay and moaned, you understand?

АП: That is, you heard other prisoners?

ЕН: I heard the sound of clanging metal in a neighboring cell. It seemed to me that they were making some instruments there for torture. I was afraid to... There was a hole, I saw that someone was there. I was afraid to address them there. And on August 28 there were strong explosions and there was shooting on the first floor. I still dared, got on my knees, looked into the hole — I see a person lying.

АП: You mean, you looked into the neighboring cell?

ЕН: Yes-yes-yes.

АП: There was some hole in the wall, yes?

ЕН: Yes, holes in the wall were there, because pipes are laid, and they weren't sealed. I see a young man lying. I say: "What's your name?" He says: "I'm Koshmarik." Well, this is my friend Koshmarik, Valera. He has such a nickname, "Koshmarik." I say: "Valera, is this ours? Are ours hitting?" And he says: "No, looks like outgoing flights." Not incoming, but outgoing. And only then I understood that Valera was nearby. I say: "And where's Olya?" His girlfriend. His common-law wife, my friend. He says: "Olya is in a neighboring cell." I say: "How are you?" He says: "Normal." Well he's generally such a fighter, he's such, generally... He, though Belarusian, but he's such a patriot of Ukraine, he's such a smarty. We conducted streams together. He also together with Olya... They conducted streams, supported Ukrainians, Kherson residents, — everyone-everyone supported, said: "People, we're waiting for the Armed Forces of Ukraine, everything will be fine, we just need to wait." And they held Valera for a month... beat him. Then another month he dug trenches with handcuffs on his hands. They released him only after two months. They released Olya with me on the same day, because she just got sick there. They fed us all with one spoon, from cell to cell they carried this little teaspoon. She just caught rotavirus infection, she couldn't speak anymore, nothing. And they beat her too, with current, and beat her like that. And they released her with me on the same day, September 2. Well, first they recorded apology videos, and then with bags on our heads they took us home, said: "Prepare money for relocation, order a transporter, we're extraditing you. You're an extremist, we won't leave you here, we're deporting you for a year." But in the end they postponed three times... Three times they postponed departure, because a fuss started around my name.

АП: Did they tell this to you or to her? You just started talking about your girlfriend in the beginning, about how they took her out and started saying: "Prepare money for relocation." Are you talking about yourself now or about her?

ЕН: This is about myself. They also extorted money from them. They had money at home, they gave it to them. They just took out everything: all equipment, all electronics, everything... everything that was at Valera's. He generally dealt with selling these radio parts. He had a bunch of everything there. They just swept out everything from the house, from computers to the smallest parts.

АП: Tell me, please, how much time did you spend in total from the moment of your captivity?

ЕН: 11 days and 10 nights.

АП: Tell me, please, in more detail about how they released you. What happened? Did they force you to record an apology?

ЕН: Yes, they forced me to record an apology. You saw it, yes?

АП: Yes.

ЕН: Here, they forced me. Then another video, they said: "If you talk a lot...", they recorded another video, supposedly for the SBU slander on these my friends. That I inform the GRU that these people conduct extremist activity. I think: "Yes, Lord, I'll be the first... I'll go to the SBU myself and warn about what happened and about what they recorded." Therefore I calmly recorded this. It was just... I understood that a little more, and I'll just get sick there and die. The fact that there wasn't enough food, — the organism adapts quickly to the fact that you don't want to eat. I was afraid that I would run out of water and that I would freeze, because sleeping on a cement floor... well, it's, you know, not very comfortable.

АП: What kind of building was this? Do you know about this?

ЕН: Yes, now I already know that this was the building of the Suvorov district executive committee. By the way, they almost detained me the first time precisely near this building. If you want, I can tell.

АП: Yes, tell me, please, when this was and what happened.

ЕН: This was May 25, the last day when I conducted a stream from the city. I always conducted streams from squares, from streets, from the market. This was on Freedom Square, I was walking by, I look, there's a crowd of people near this building. People were signing up to receive humanitarian aid. Well, because there was already nothing to live on. Two soldiers just stood there, watched so this crowd wouldn't storm in. And I was walking by and filming from afar. Then I look, one soldier runs to me and says: "Woman, give me the phone." I hid the phone behind my back, and I was conducting a stream. People heard all this. I say: "I won't give it," — "What are you filming there?" I say: "I'm talking with my son," — "Come with us." He grabs me by the hand, by the bag. I say: "I won't go." I pretended that I was also standing in this line. I say: "I'll come to you tomorrow." I broke free, turned and calmly walked. Well, like calmly: I was shaking all over, of course, but I think, now they'll take me under the white arms and lead me away. Right to this building. And I go around the corner already, around one, around a second, I take out the phone and understand that the stream is going. People there are already in panic, my friends: "Come on, let's go there, let's go, we'll take Lena, we'll rescue her! Who's with me." I say: "People, everything's normal, I'm fine." They tell me: "Please, don't conduct streams from the street anymore." You understand, some kind of fate, I ended up right in this building.

АП: Yeah...

ЕН: Yes. Then only from home I conducted streams.

АП: We stopped at the fact that they forced you to record these videos. What was next? Did they take you home or did they just release you?

ЕН: Yes, with a bag on my head they took me home, stopped halfway and said... They took my phone, entered the banking application, they say: "Why so little money? With what money are you planning to travel?" I say: "I have money at home for relocation, 4 thousand," — "Oh, and what will you live on there?" I say: "Ukraine pays me salary, my son sends me money from abroad. And then Ukraine meets, feeds, puts to sleep, gives money, dresses, shoes, sends free further, wherever you want to go... Pays money." They say: "No, for settling in Ukraine you need 70-80 thousand." I say: "Why do I need so much?", — "To settle." I say: "So I have enough, I have salary coming," — "You're hiding, we know you, come on, so there's money, we'll come in three days, you'll name us a transporter, and so there's money." And when they came in three days, I say: "Come in, I'll give you money." They're like: "No, what are you saying, this is money for you!". I then understood that a fuss arose. My relatives started looking for me, my friends on TikTok, my subscribers and generally ordinary people all over the world, because there was information on television that they took me.

They [Russian military] say: "No, we won't release you without money." My goodness, I call, — relatives collected this sum, I wanted to give it to them [Russian military]. And they didn't even enter the yard, they say: "Come out here." And they themselves in balaclavas. We stood almost at a crossroads, in sight of everyone, in broad daylight. They talked with me. They say: "Well, you're not leaving tomorrow, order in a couple days." That is, they had no decision from above about me, what to do with me. Then they postponed several times. And at the very beginning they tell me: "You understand, there, in Ukraine, they'll make a star out of you literally for one week, and then everyone will forget about you, but we won't forget. If you talk a lot, we'll extradite you not for one year, but for 10 years." "Oh," I think, "the Armed Forces of Ukraine will deport you faster than you think."

АП: Do I understand correctly that you needed to collect money, find a transporter and leave for any city of Ukraine?

ЕН: Yes. Well, leave for territory, for [Ukraine-]controlled territory they'll extradite me. And only in that case they'll give me back my passport. They have the passport.

АП: And did they take your passport when they took you captive? ЕН: Yes. And we all went around with passports. I had my passport and two phones in my bag. They said they won't return [the phones], but they'll return the passport when there's a carrier and when I collect the money. And then they started postponing, although in early September through Vasylivka there was practically free passage. They started pulling the wool over my eyes, saying that they're bombing heavily there now, people stand in fields for a week, "take more food". I only understood later why they were saying this. They were waiting for a convenient moment to take me and the other people who were in captivity or in the basement out... They came to me on September 19 and said: "Here, this week you'll definitely go". I say: "What date should I book for?". They say: "We'll take you out ourselves". I was shocked, you know. I say: "Aha, you'll take me to the nearest forest belt". He also jerked like I'd read his thoughts. He says: "No, everything will be fine". They left, and I just froze near the yard, stood as I was standing. I was under house arrest, I practically didn't go out. Just a couple times they allowed me to go to the store, to the market. People walk past me and everyone hugs me. I don't even know these people. The whole city just knew. They kept playing this video with apologies on Kherson television and on Crimean [television] for a whole month.

АП: Nightmare!

ЕН: And they say: "What's wrong with you?", they say: "How are you?". I say: "Well, they're planning to take me out, I feel they'll take me out two meters deep. No further than that". They say: "Listen, let us help you. We have acquaintances of acquaintances, through acquaintances, through fifth acquaintances, they have an apartment. Let us arrange with them, and you'll come there, we'll hide you".

АП: An apartment in Kherson?

ЕН: Yes, in Kherson. Even in our neighborhood. But, they say, on one condition, that there will be no contacts. With no one. "Neither with your relatives, nor with anyone. Let them think that you were kidnapped again. Leave the doors open, leave a packed bag, the phone, that button one", which they allowed me to buy for the trip through Vasylivka. Because they don't let you through there without a phone.

АП: And they took those two from you, right? The ones you had?

ЕН: Yes, they took those. I say: "But how will I get through Vasylivka without a phone?", — "Well, you're an older woman, buy a button phone, there won't be any complaints about you".

In the evening twilight began. I quietly, quietly left with another bag to this apartment. I came, they met me. I just sat for eight weeks with closed curtains, practically without fresh air. Well, I aired out, sometimes, the windows. I didn't go out on the balcony. I just sat by the lamp, read books. Then they brought me a tablet, I already had some information. But I understood... I was shaking, I understood that my relatives were going crazy again.

АП: That is, neither your son nor anyone knew where you were?

ЕН: No, nobody knew. A week before liberation I sent word to my relatives. Well, like word, also through tenth phones in order to... Well, I wrote it encoded, I just thought they would understand it was me. Well, I inserted certain little words there, such, my own traditional ones, so they would understand that I was alive.

АП: Can you tell what they were?

ЕН: I can.

АП: Go ahead.

ЕН: I wrote... I didn't communicate with my son at all, because I already knew he was looking for me, I didn't contact him directly. I contacted my sister who was abroad. When we corresponded during the occupation, I constantly sent her an emoji in the morning, such a ladybug smiling and winking with its eyes. She sent me emojis back in the morning and evening. And she says to me: "Lenka, you looked so much like... you look so much like this ladybug as a child". I sent her... and not even to her, but to my nephews I sent... now, just a second, let me close the door.

АП: Yes, of course.

ЕН: I'm visiting my brother here. And I write to my nephew: "Santik...". We called him Santik in childhood, he was so small, handsome, blue-eyed. We used to say "Santik-bantik". I write: "Santik, say hello to your parents from the ladybug. Everything's normal, sitting quietly. Everything will be fine". And so they puzzled over it... Sashenka passed this SMS to them. Oh, and I also wrote: "Don't call here". And he passed this SMS to his parents, my sister and her husband, and they puzzled over it for a long time. They later told me, they say: "Yes, Santik...". Only I called him that, Santik. Ladybug. Well, it's clear that the ladybug is me. But they weren't completely sure to the end, because they had the phones. They read all of this, they could understand all of this, you understand? I just took a risk and sent them such a message, I just understood that my sister's heart would break, she wouldn't survive this madness. And so I sent them such an SMS. And from this SMS they had hope kindled that I was alive.

АП: This was a week before liberation?

ЕН: About a week, yes, two before liberation. We were already listening to Arestovich, we already understood that our [forces] were advancing through Kherson Oblast, on the right bank. And I just asked these people who were hiding me, I say: "Please, well, at least pass along, at least some word, well...". So they passed this SMS through Cyprus, through relatives of those people whom I didn't know, understand? From there.

АП: Unbelievable! And the apartment where you lived, this was also an apartment of random acquaintances.

ЕН: Absolutely. They brought me there, I saw this woman for the first time. This saint who hid me. We thought, for two to three weeks... We thought, maybe we'll make me some kind of passport, and I'll manage to leave through Vasylivka. And in the end this dragged on for long eight weeks. And this woman and I became just... just best friends. She's my guardian angel.

АП: And this woman also lived there?

ЕН: Well, it was her apartment. She lived nearby. She just brought me groceries every day.

АП: Unbelievable! Really a guardian angel. And when did you come out from there? When they liberated Kherson?

ЕН: Yes. Yes, she runs in in the morning, shouts: "Lena! Ours! Ours are in the city! Ours, boys! Ours, AFU [editor's note: Armed Forces of Ukraine]!". We cry, hug. I say: "I don't believe it, I don't believe it!" She says: "Get dressed, let's go! Get dressed!". We ran out onto the street. I ran to my house. Found a flag in the attic. Then in the bags that I brought... well, the most valuable from the kindergarten, – found two small Ukrainian flags. I wrapped myself in this flag. We with flags, with flowers... Picked yellow chrysanthemums, tied them with blue ribbon. We ran out to the intersection in our neighborhood, there were already people there. And our guys were driving, our military. We all shouted, waved. It was such... you know... They honked at us. I say: "Let's go, let's go to the center". She says: "Let's go tomorrow". I say: "Let's go now!". I catch a car, a taxi, we go to the central square, and there our scouts were already standing on pickups, and it was impossible to approach them: all the people were trying to hug them, touch them. Everyone was crying. Everyone was hugging. We gave them flowers. Took photos with them. I say: "Can I hug you?", — "Of course you can". That is, not a column of equipment entered, like the orcs entered, understand? Intimidatingly, on all streets columns of equipment raced, columns of equipment stood on the central street. Ours quietly entered. The columns entered along the outskirts, just bypassed Kherson from all sides, and through the center our [forces] drove on pickups, our reconnaissance on SUVs. On the second day "starlinks" [editor's note: satellite communication systems] drove onto the square. Military guys distributed communication, distributed... Let [people] charge phones, because we had already been sitting without electricity, without communication, without anything for a week. It was such unity! People all, all with flags, all with little flags, with some ribbons, with balloons... How happy they were, they just cried. Near the monument stood a watermelon, our military approached, took the watermelon in their hands and photographed themselves with this watermelon against the background of our flags.

АП: You mean a live, real watermelon?

ЕН: A real live watermelon, yes. Someone dragged it there, and it stood there all those days, nobody stole it, our military photographed themselves with it all the time. I also photographed myself with it. There are, somewhere there are pictures. Well, if you search in TikTok "Olena Naumova", there are very many videos. You can see this.

АП: You decided to start a new TikTok. Why?

ЕН: Well, because the system blocked this SIM card of mine, I can't restore it.

АП: That is, you can't log into your old account?

ЕН: I can't into the old one. I can log in as a guest, but as the owner I can't log in. I'll look for help from my young TikTok friends, maybe they'll help me somehow return it. Well, I got back the SIM card itself, but for some reason it doesn't open. It lights up on the phone, but it doesn't open, I don't know how to open it to take this account, relink it to a new phone. And there are still 105 thousand subscribers, I feel sorry [to lose them]. These people purely sincerely supported me and all Kherson residents. I wouldn't want to lose them. Well, and on the new account I already have 50 thousand, in these two weeks, I've already gained.

АП: After they liberated Kherson, you don't live at your own home?

ЕН: No, I live with relatives.

АП: And why didn't you go home?

ЕН: Oh, they're bombing Kherson very heavily. I lived there for a week, it was quiet. Then STB television channel took me out, just miraculously took me out. There wasn't an exit yet, they... Great guys, they did such work that they managed to take me and my friend out, who decided to support me on the show "DNA Our Own"... they just took us to Kyiv to film a program with me, which aired yesterday. And then after the program, after five days of filming, I moved to Kyiv Oblast to my brother's, here I registered, for now I live here. But I'm planning to move to Kyiv in the coming days. My friend invited me. She has a spare apartment, she's letting me stay there.

АП: That is, for now you plan to live there until it calms down?

ЕН: Yes, while they're bombing very heavily, bombing Kherson. Well, I tell my friends: "Guys, well, I didn't survive the occupation to die there under mortar shelling, under missiles, under cluster shells". It's just hell there now. Hell. Absolute hell. They're doing to Kherson the same thing as to Mariupol. They're just leveling everything to the ground. And people there constantly sit in basements, and they constantly lose water, electricity... Because these... enemies constantly blow up infrastructure, constantly. Our [forces] restore — they blow up again, our [forces] restore — they blow up again. Well, this is such genocide against the Ukrainian people, understand? They shouted: "Kherson is our city! These are our people here". But how are you treating them now?

АП: Now against their own... Yes, unfortunately, that's how it is. Tell me please, do you communicate now with other TikTok-ers?

ЕН: Yes, yes. I was very afraid that my friends were angry at me because they ended up in the basement. But on the day of departure, the 18th, we still met. It turns out that nobody is angry at anybody. Well, they also conducted such activities, they were also under attack all the time. We hugged, we filmed a video about how the gang of Kherson TikTok-ers sends you greetings, I have that video there.

АП: Who exactly do you mean?

ЕН: I have a video there, one of the first ones, look there. There are three of us, there's Valera, Koshmarik, and Olya, Olegovna. These are my friends who sat in the basement with me. We met on the 7th or 8th day after liberation. I came to the square in the morning, and they came after lunch, understand? We couldn't meet somehow, and there was no phone. And to go to them, there, to that street which I named, and the house number which I didn't name, I didn't dare. I thought that the guys might be angry at me, but it turned out that everything was the complete opposite. On the contrary, they were looking for me, they were supporting me. They were worried about me, — well, like all our Kherson residents, and very many people in Ukraine and all over the world. I'm very grateful to them. Low bow to them for support, for... for that... this... information which they constantly spread on the internet about me. Huge gratitude to them.

АП: Let me clarify now: when you named their street, they were detained after that too, and you then met them in the basement?

ЕН: Yes, but they weren't detained after that. They had a whole night to leave. They just didn't make it in the morning. They were tracked down through my second phone with the Russian SIM card. Valerka had entered his and Olya's phones there, and this phone was weak, the battery was weak there. And they charged the battery overnight, the next morning just opened the phone and saw among the contact lists "Koshmarik" and "Olegovna". And they just came there by beacon. The guys had just come out with bags, and they drove up. They literally lacked a couple minutes to escape. Well, and they didn't turn off the phones. If they had thrown away these SIM cards, they wouldn't have been found. But they were afraid for their parents. They lived with their parents. They could take their parents, could torture them. They didn't want to shift [blame] onto them so that... well, they themselves, understand? Young people.

АП: That is, they were detained the day after you were detained?

ЕН: Yes, the next day, yes. They forced me to arrange meetings with them. I supposedly arranged meetings with them, well, they themselves arranged through my phone. They wrote... And there the last message was still before captivity: "Valera, come fix the bicycle". I rode a bicycle, often punctured the tire, and Valera glued it for me. And all the subscribers in the stream said: "Valera, come fix auntie's bicycle". Well, we jokingly called it that: I'm auntie, and they're my nephews. And so the orcs say: "How to arrange a meeting?". And there the last phrase was: "Valer, fix the bicycle". I say: "Well, Valer, fix the bicycle". I think, maybe he won't come this time either. And Valerka came, it turns out. Once he came during the day, — thank God, they didn't catch him. And he didn't find me, he was surprised. And the second time he also came in the evening, also found nobody. He didn't know that they had taken me. He only later...

АП: They sent him messages from your phone so he would come?

ЕН: Yes-yes-yes-yes. Yes, to track down others. They, I suspect, also sent such messages to other friends of mine. Well, I don't know who else was involved.

АП: Then you met them in the cells?

ЕН: Yes-yes-yes-yes. They kept us nearby.

АП: Tell me please, now you continue to run TikTok? As far as I understand, you're collecting money again?

ЕН: I personally don't collect, because the [banking] system blocked [my account], I just can't collect money. But I there... one of the first videos is there, we collected money for another volunteer's card, Lyuba's. There [in social networks] she was L. Beletska, and in life it's Lyubov Pankiv. She helped Kherson residents, Kherson Oblast all through the occupation with her husband. They delivered packages with humanitarian aid. She's the head of the organization "Matusi Khersona" — "Mothers of Kherson". And she helped families with children all through the occupation. And now she just appealed to me, says: "Help collect money, we need to help distant villages, — because humanitarian aid doesn't reach there". So, it's demonstrative in Kherson [editor's note: "demonstrative" — Ukrainian for "for show"]... Well not demonstrative — not demonstrative, but they really help Kherson residents, although the lines are thousands-long. But still people receive humanitarian aid, but it doesn't reach distant villages. And therefore I filmed a video and said that: "Guys, there's my volunteer friend. Please throw money to her card for help to distant villages". And people very actively started throwing money, because they trust me. If I trust this person, people trust me. That's how we collect money. This way. For now I don't collect to [my] card, but there's already Ukrainian authority, there's already someone to help there, they're already paying pensions, giving humanitarian aid. I think they'll manage there without me now. I'm just afraid that the system will ban me again, and I'll have to go to PrivatBank again to restore my cards. So for now I don't collect.

АП: I'd like to go back a little. In the beginning you told about how you went out to the square, sang songs, tried to somehow protest. Can you tell about this in more detail?

ЕН: Yes. You know, the first time I went out to the square on March 13. Well, this is a special day in Kherson. This is the day of liberation of Kherson from German-fascist invaders. And Kherson residents by the calling of heart and soul... Well, before they herded us to rallies, yes, in Soviet times, but here we came out ourselves — with flags, with symbols. We in a numerous crowd walking through all neighborhoods, gathered in the center on Freedom Square, we... with protest. We shouted: "Go home, go home! Go home! Ukraine, One united cathedral Ukraine!". Very many slogans, sang "Oy u luzi chervona kalyna", sang "Stefania", said: "Zelensky is great, and to Putin — the end!". Very many different slogans there were. And we shouted. The occupants just stood near the building, near the administration, near their equipment and danced a little to this music.

АП: Seriously?

ЕН: Yes, seriously. They're liberators, they didn't have orders to hurt us yet. And a column of equipment stood along Ushakov Avenue, this is the central street, right from the square, a column of equipment stood. And we then carried our flag, a hundred-meter Ukrainian flag we carried along this street there, to Glory Park. And how much we walked, how much we shouted these slogans... Some soldiers got angry and started shooting in the air, because... Just women couldn't stand it, just said such words to them, insulting, understand? Well, we understood what was happening, that people were dying, civilians. Well, that's what, that's what unity was. I was among my own among my people, understand? It was an uplift, I held a phone in my hands, I conducted streams. More than a thousand people were constantly simultaneously in the stream. People were interested in what was happening in Kherson. Not only me, my friend Olya also filmed streams. Many-many bloggers filmed streams, not only on TikTok, on Facebook, on YouTube. We showed what was happening in Kherson. We went out to rallies every week, but the occupants became angrier and angrier. In the end they started dispersing us with smoke grenades, flash-bang grenades, shooting in the air, shooting at our feet. This way, in two, almost in one and a half months they stopped our rallies. Well, we moved to another square, to Shevchenko square, that's where I sang the song. It just happened that we shouted slogans, sang songs, and then there was a pause. And I as a teacher-organizer in the past at the lyceum, I understand that at events there shouldn't be pauses. And I come out like this and say: "People, do you know a song about Kherson?". And I sang them a song:

"In the city of Kherson Nights, oh, sleepless, Our boys are extinguishing the Muscovites! Let them remember And no longer ask, How we meet enemies!..."

And I see, people are filming me. Well, filming, so filming. well, the rally was short, they said that occupants were coming, we dispersed quickly. And while we reached the stop, a column of equipment was already driving. It just... just rushed to that meeting place. It completely bypassed Shevchenko square, between the Youth Palace and "Sputnik" [editor's note: Youth Palace; "Sputnik" — a Soviet cinema, where construction of a residential building began several years ago on its site]. And I stood filming this column. God, we... good thing we all managed to leave. And I come home, rest — came home on foot — rest, my cousin calls, who's in Kherson. Says: "Len, well, you're great of course, but maybe you'll sit it out at our place for 2-3 days?". I think: "What happened?". I think, are ours coming in or something? I say: "No, everything's normal, I have a basement here, everything's good". He says: "Well-well". And then I open the phone, and they're already sending me fragments of this performance of mine at the rally, sending that they already showed it on television, on the telemarathon. I started shaking a little, I think: "Yes-yes, Vyacheslavovna, probably brother is right, need to go visit him for a few days". So I sat at my brother's for a week, then returned, and as if nothing had happened...

АП: That is, they showed you on television as a hero? Or as a traitor?

ЕН: Not as a hero, they just showed the rally and showed that I sang a song by the group "Spiv brativ", this one verse about Kherson there. Well, I understood that I needed to be more careful. Well, nevertheless I didn't stop conducting streams, filming videos. You know, while you're doing all this, you feel that I'm among Ukrainians, among my own. And when I came out of the stream or after videos, really the instinct of self-preservation returned to me. But I understood that the deed was done, dear, there's no way back. But, by the way, I deleted many videos in such fear. I had masses of interesting videos. For example, I showed in the house, I say: "Russians, look, I have one toilet, — then I show the neighbor's, — second toilet, bidet... Oh, God, you'll just freeze on the word 'bidet'. Let's do this, I give you all this, and you get out of Kherson". I had such a video, I deleted it over time, because I understood that I was just walking on a knife's edge, understand? I don't remember what other videos there were, but I tried to make some private, close, only for friends and subscribers, some just... But then it dawned on me that among friends and subscribers there could also be enemies. Well, among friends, let's say, no, although there were all kinds of variants, but anyone could subscribe to me. And they could watch these videos. In short, it was like... waved a stick in front of fire, in short.

АП: I understand correctly that the people who tortured you, military, they tried not to show their faces and do everything so you wouldn't see them?

ЕН: Yes, yes. And I was with a bag on my head. Well, it was uncomfortable for them to sit in the office with balaclavas on their faces. At first they made me be with the bag. Oh, wait, I got confused. Well, the first, there, hour of interrogation, when they still tried to play good, they sat behind me, I sat without a bag. And then, when I looked around too much, they put a bag on my head and didn't take it off anymore. Until the very cell they didn't take it off. So I wouldn't see them. And when they came to me during house arrest, they also didn't take off balaclavas. That is, in principle, I only saw eyes. They were being extra careful. At this time, you understand, there were excavations near Izium, and they also had somewhere... Somewhere they were shaking gradually, because still they'll find everyone, still they'll punish everyone. Still they'll identify everyone.

АП: The sooner the better.

ЕН: My friends say they remembered them, because when they dug trenches, there they were already without balaclavas. And the guys say: "We remembered them all, we'll find them all".

АП: You were under house arrest in the period between captivity and when you found this apartment. And all this time they continued to come to you? Check that you were sitting at home and not going anywhere?

ЕН: Yes, and they watched me: a car regularly either stood near theirs, or drove past several times a day, I saw through the window. Yes, I was constantly under surveillance, because when they let me out of the car, on the day of my release [from the basement], they called... Demonstratively called to his point and said: "Yes, such and such address, yes, observing". Well, I really saw that they were watching, because I have such a dog, it would run out from the yard, and it had to be let back in. And I often approached the gate, opened the wicket so my Bayraktar would come in, and I often saw this car.

АП: He's called Bayraktar?

ЕН: Yes, well, he was Jack before the war, then became Bayraktar. I had a cat Lelik, became HIMARS. And Dzhevelinku we found on the street just during a stream. Subscribers say: "Somewhere something is meowing". And we found Dzhevelinku and immediately called her that. And when the orcs saw that I was letting the dog in, they made sure I was home, then they drove away [editor's note: "Bayraktar" — Turkish drone, "HIMARS" — American multiple rocket launcher system, "Javelin" — American portable anti-tank missile system; all this equipment and weapons are used in the war in Ukraine].

АП: Tell me please, after the war ends, do you plan to return to work? Or will you remain only a blogger?

ЕН: Yes, yes, both return to work, and return to the children, and return home, — I need to do repairs there, if the house survives, of course. I'll definitely return. Why did you ask that?

АП: No, just. In case you decide to go into blogging permanently and will only do TikTok?

ЕН: Oh, what would prevent me from running a blog in parallel? Nothing prevented me before either. I have a wonderful principal, young, progressive. She knows this isn't to the detriment of my work. I filmed, for example, with the kids, only early in the morning or late in the evening, when there were several people left. That is, when lessons were already conducted, you know, conversations, games, everything. The kids themselves asked: "Vyacheslavovna, will we film TikToks today?". I say: "Well, if you eat everything, if you complete all tasks, then we'll film TikToks". Understand, I have such a small kindergarten, such a group, few children in groups, so... Parents weren't against it, they gave their approval, there, several people. With these kids I filmed all the videos. My head teacher wasn't against it.

АП: Great.

ЕН: The methodologist, of course, gritted her teeth a little, but she's a good woman, she understood that I still manage everything anyway. Well, she just [worried] so that others wouldn't all rush into this business.

АП: Great when it's like that.

ЕН: Well, just, my authority in the city, even before this was... it already was, understand, so nobody particularly bothered me. And I have poems, three books of poems. So they know me a little in Kherson.

АП: Great. Thank you very much for the conversation.