They beat one fighter from Azov for three days. In the morning the guard called him a hearse

ВС: Hello.

КА: I congratulate you, you're finally free. This is very cool and valuable, that you're okay, that you're alive, that you're on free land. How are you now?

ВС: Yes, better already. Every day it gets better, but there are echoes of psychological trauma, so to speak, a bit tense. Gradually coming to yourself.

КА: You're in Ukraine now, yes?

ВС: Yes. Near Chernivtsi.

КА: Are you safe? As much as that's possible in Ukraine right now.

ВС: Here it's quite, yes, safe.

КА: Vitaliy, first of all, thank you very much for agreeing to talk with me. Second, do you have any questions that you'd like to clarify before we start the interview? Maybe you want to clarify something, find out something?

ВС: Questions about the interview?

КА: Maybe something's not very clear to you about the publication, maybe there are some such questions.

ВС: No, no questions. I already glanced briefly at the Instagram page. Otherwise I'll figure it out later, because actually I haven't really figured anything out yet, there's mush in my head.

КА: Yes, that's understandable.

ВС: I agreed to give you an interview, before this I only gave one to one channel, I've been freezing out the rest so far.

КА: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you.

ВС: Well, it's like you don't really understand why it's actually needed, it's like you need to give it, but at the same time you understand that it's not the time for this at all. Through force a bit, actually.

КА: Look, first of all, if there are any questions that are hard for you, you don't want to or you can't answer, you just tell me: "Katya, I don't want to talk about this, I can't talk about this." That's absolutely normal. If there are any topics that are difficult for you, just tell me, let's move on.

ВС: There aren't any specific topics that are difficult, in principle. There are probably some topics that I won't bring up. Some details, internal nuances, so as not to harm those who are still there, I won't bring up questions. It's just that everything psychologically stresses me out a bit now. Now gathering all this together. I still haven't written, haven't gotten myself together and haven't written a chronology, this is just for myself, because in time everything gets hammered in, some details get forgotten. Now I'll be telling, I'll definitely forget something, something will slip out. Maybe some details, maybe not. Many probably think that, well, got captured, sat there, came out [after] a hundred days. Well, everything was so intense there, every day everything changed. You definitely won't remember all the events.

КА: Yes, that's absolutely understandable. I also want to ask a very personal question before the start of the interview. How's Yurik? Is he okay? (editor's note: this refers to a military medic who was in captivity at the time of conversation with Vitaliy. Yurik Mkrtchyan was exchanged in autumn 2022)

ВС: Which medic, you mean?

КА: Yes, Karina's brother, Mkrtchyan.

ВС: I, honestly speaking, never communicated with him at all. I only saw him, face to face somewhere I met him, as I wrote to Karina. Somewhere in the cafeteria, somewhere in the barracks, there where [unintelligible], passed by. Didn't communicate. I gave Karina the contact of a person who also sat with us, a volunteer who personally communicated with him. He'll tell in more detail already. If you need it, I can also give you this contact. Maybe you'd be interested to talk. In principle, I think he's okay relatively speaking for those places. Everything's okay, because he's a medic, first of all, he's doing work, he's useful there. Because I didn't notice their own medics there. When Russia came to the territory, to the zone, some medic appeared there, who doesn't really have anything there, some limited capabilities. Mainly the prisoners of war themselves worked, were involved in all the work. Therefore, I think he's doing well partly because he's needed. This could also be a minus in terms of release. There were theories, it's still not clear if it influences or not, but probably it still influences somehow, that if people are involved in some work, then possibly they'll [stay in captivity] longer and not be given up for exchange.

КА: Yes, unfortunately, very worrying, I somehow really lived through this story. Every hero I record stays very deeply in me. Okay, let's start from far back then. Before the full-scale invasion of Russia into Ukraine, what were you doing? What was your job? Or what were you doing?

ВС: If from far back, then I worked twelve years at Illich Steel and Iron Works, at the "Metinvest" plant.

КА: Are you from Mariupol?

ВС: Yes, yes, I'm from Mariupol. Then I quit, somehow I got carried away with extreme activities. This is my theme that's always in my head – rope jumping and all that. I was busy with this, there's an organization, we went to Turkey, organized [sports trips]. "Alaska," sports complex, I was an instructor there, you could say, in rock climbing, snowboarding. The last two years I mainly drove taxi, because there was a necessity [to earn], [I thought it was] like temporary, but as it turned out, there's nothing more permanent than temporary. Somewhere the last almost two years I drove taxi.

КА: So the start of the full-scale invasion of Russia into Ukraine began, full-scale war began. How did you start volunteering? What did you start doing?

ВС: I wouldn't say that I started volunteering exactly. This is such, you could say, a name that stuck to us already there, in prison. When it started, somewhere almost a month, three weeks I drove in my car still to Mariupol. Before we left with [unintelligible] from Mariupol, someone needed water brought, someone just to check on, someone had left early. Friends, acquaintances asked me to check on someone in the city. In my car I just drove, at the same time bringing someone water, someone Snickers or something like that. Just to find out who's where, alive or not. And to the left bank, which was being shelled actively then, I drove, took someone out to safer places. In the same port it was safer for us then still. [When I drove] nearby and shells exploded, I have a friend, his son was in the center, he asked me to pick him up. I understood that I wouldn't get there later – there were active battles, at my own risk [I went there], maybe it was stupidity. I spent somewhere thirty minutes probably trying to get to this house, driving around those same tanks, there was an active line of demarcation. I already [went] on foot, just left the car, ran to this house, there the house was burning, everywhere these fires, some burned cars smashed. By some miracle I found the basement, [the friend's son was] not in that basement at all [that] they told me about, I found the son, his mother. In the end they refused to go. I took the neighbors. "Quickly," I said, "five minutes, get ready. Whoever wants – I can take you out to a safe place in the city." [I] ran, already bullets were whistling, really hitting hard, exactly automatic bursts started [ricocheting] off the fence. Well, there were many such moments actually if you think about it. Possibly it was stupidity to risk so much somewhere, driving under shells. But at that moment you somehow don't understand, on adrenaline [you do everything]. I wouldn't say that I'm a volunteer. It happened that for me [they started calling me that], as they told us about World War II, how people helped each other there. This is somehow natural, in general. That is, I was driving somewhere, I look, there were green corridors for us, toward Melekino. And many people in the city [started leaving], there were big columns of civilian cars leaving the city, many people just walked on foot with things, someone with a backpack, someone with whole families with carts, bags, animals. Just walked in the direction of leaving the city, where the green corridor [was], up to the point that they even left cities on foot. Somewhere in the center often, when I went for someone, took somewhere, if I was driving empty in that direction, I just picked up people and, so to speak, dropped them off. Moreover, it surprised me, although I drove taxi, but still it somehow didn't add up in my head – when I just picked them up, they got out, asked how much they owed. For me this was surprising and somehow offensive. I really was surprised. Somewhere until March 18 I drove around like this periodically to the center. Generally I thought that probably shouldn't leave the city, I kept thinking [that] the city will hold out, because I knew there were many military – it's like we were preparing for eight years.

КА: You said that you regularly came to Mariupol, so it turns out you left with your family somewhere for evacuation. Where did you go, from where did you regularly come to Mariupol?

ВС: No, this is all I was telling, this I was in Mariupol. I drove, took out [people] and, if I managed to take someone out, then to safe places in the city itself. I was located, I myself lived in the port area, closer to the exit to the green corridor, Cheremushki [district]. From there I drove to the center. Active battles were in the center, on Vostochny, 20th microdistrict (editor's note: names of Mariupol districts). And there I went out, you could say, into the city. For us it was relatively quiet, although shells flew at us too and near the house often. Somewhere [unintelligible] I thought that everything would still be good with the city. March 18 we left, somewhere 16th-17th I made the last trips into the city, when I saw the center already completely destroyed... Well, really... I love my city, but when I saw this whole picture, just everything destroyed wherever you look, everywhere houses all broken, just nothing left, solid fragments, nobody there at all – only shots and bombing. Then I already understood that everything, need to leave. March 18 we left for Dnipro with family, with neighbors, left in two cars, left apartments. We still hoped when we were leaving [that we'd return]. I somehow thought, we all thought, that the apartments would still be whole, we didn't take so many things, clothes, we understood that we'd return, we'd still come back for things. Now I already know, they showed me photographs, that the house was bombed pretty good. And the house [is scheduled] for demolition in two months. Well, and things, I think, there aren't any there anymore either. Looted.

КА: Do you have any contact with people who stayed in Mariupol? You say that you know that there's no house. Did you see this somewhere or did someone send it to you from those who stayed?

ВС: Neighbors just sent photographs. They in turn were sent them by their acquaintances who stayed there. Some people stayed, yes. So they photographed. Someone even went into the apartment, photographed. I'm still hoping that something remained in the apartment, we'll try to get at least something out of there remotely.

КА: As far as I understand, you didn't position yourself as a volunteer. You just helped because you helped, because there was opportunity, a car, you took someone out. March 18 you left with family to Dnipro. What happened next?

ВС: In Dnipro we settled with friends, relatives. Somewhere nine days I stayed there.

КА: Nine days?

ВС: Yes, March 26 I left already, it turns out, from Dnipro. I contacted an acquaintance on March 25. I saw on Instagram, on social networks, that buses go to the city...

КА: To Mariupol?

ВС: Yes, they take people out, they bring humanitarian aid. Plus-minus they go back and forth, they seem to successfully leave from there. Some small cars, I knew that they don't let many cars through, but when there's some big car with humanitarian aid, they let it through. I saw an opportunity that you can enter the city, at the same time I was planning, of course, to [go] to my place if possible. Maybe not from the first time, maybe on the next trip to go to my address and possibly take some things. At the same time from the first trip I wanted to check on [people]. I have friends with whom I left, they have relatives there, I wanted [to see] some close ones still, bring humanitarian aid to someone, try to take out someone from relatives, friends. Well, I saw that there was such an opportunity with these minibuses and with the organization. Just I saw a post that drivers with Mariupol registration are needed, because they let through exactly with Mariupol registration. Supposedly one's going home to himself. Well, through an acquaintance, she's also a journalist, Alevtina Shvetsova, she suggested Denis Minin's organization.

КА: What's the organization called?

ВС: "We take out" – "Vivozimo" in Ukrainian. Then I don't know yet if there was an organization or not, if it was called that or not. Now it's already formed during this time. And then I just vaguely heard about Denis Minin, he was such a media person in our city, journalist, host, there was some remote trust [I had in him]. Well, we contacted in the evening, called. The next morning, you could say, in a hurry I already left for Zaporizhzhia, from Dnipro to Zaporizhzhia, there you could take this minibus, load up with humanitarian aid and go already to Mariupol.

КА: Can we stop a little bit? I understand why you were returning – you wanted to check on relatives, friends and yours, try to take someone out, maybe bring humanitarian aid to someone, yes? But you understood that battles are happening in Mariupol, and a very difficult situation. How did you decide to go there at all, understanding that you're a young man, there are many Russian military there who could be triggered just by this? How did you decide on this? Or were you in such adrenaline that maybe you didn't think about it?

ВС: Partly probably yes, didn't think. We thought about this a lot later, sitting in the colony, how we, where we missed something. Well, there are many factors. First, I don't know how others go from other cities to such hot spots, to cities foreign to them. I spent practically a month there under these shellings, somehow you gradually get used to it, however that sounds. Even some corpses lie on the streets, somewhere it explodes. Several times it happened, I'd go out on the road, and right fifty meters away a shell would explode, somehow this even, well... you really get used to it gradually. And it doesn't scare, doesn't repel to some degree. You understand that there's risk, but such events happen. Probably this partly played a role, that we hadn't really recovered yet. Plus we thought when we were going, we even talked among ourselves, communicated with volunteers, that we thought we already had to fear shells... As it turned out when we entered, that there were already [military from] "Donetsk People's Republic" there. We somehow didn't even think that there was already "Donetsk People's Republic" there. We knew somewhere Russian military were coming from some side, but that there were already Donetsk People's Republic flags, Donetsk People's Republic cars, and DPR fighters themselves, exactly military – we didn't even know about this. Again, this is all haste, unpreparedness, some such factors. Generally, we went like that at random. Mainly all because of haste, we weren't prepared actually. Why, again, I went and decided: because I saw that they were leaving exactly from those districts [where it's relatively safe]. This is my city, I know it well and I saw in which districts [what was happening], I communicated on the same social networks [about] where it's more or less relatively calm now. I saw from where buses were leaving, picking up, I understood that there weren't active combat actions there. I repeat, the main thing we thought we needed to beware of was shells. There, where we were going, to those districts, it was just relatively quiet there. In principle, it was relatively so. This is 20th, 23rd microdistrict, there where Port City [is], if you [enter] the city from Volodarske (editor's note: the hero misspoke, it's about the settlement Volodarske, which is located at the entrance to Mariupol on the road from Dnipro. In 2016 the settlement was renamed to Mikilske). That's why we went.

КА: You've already repeated the word "haste" several times. Why was there such haste? Why was it important for you to return to the city so quickly, get there?

ВС: The haste in the actions themselves was already later. When we arrived in Zaporizhzhia, there everything was somehow... It's clear that here you can't be exactly an organization when everything is done so at random. Somewhere we got a bus, somewhere something to refuel, hardly anyone understands what and how. It wasn't organized yet like it's organized now. Well, and partly it pulled to the city. I understand now [now], from some side it pulled, I wanted still to return, didn't want to sit [in place]. In Dnipro I sat without work, tried to drive taxi a little. I'll say this: when I sat in the minibus already, when we were already leaving Zaporizhzhia for Mariupol, some goal appeared, because in Dnipro we were somehow without work, personally by my feelings, I didn't know where to put myself. I don't have such a real halo over my head that people are dying there and I'm sitting here and not helping anything. Well, probably partly this, but still there was some feeling that I was just idling. When I sat already in the minibus, some goal appeared, I felt myself in my element. We're going, some business [appeared], there's something to do.

КА: The goal was to get home, try to help those people who stayed there?

ВС: Essentially yes, several factors: take people out. My friends, acquaintances asked me if I could find out about their acquaintances. I was planning to go there more than once, as I saw that people go more or less normally. And I understood that gradually I could help everyone who asks me, inquires. This is also an important factor, when you understand that you can help a lot and you have all the opportunities for this, then why not. [This was] already subconsciously, yes. There wasn't such a plan to go to my place, well... Yes, this was too.

КА: So you went to Zaporizhzhia, got behind the wheel of a minibus that was supposed to take people out, right? Or was it loaded with humanitarian aid?

ВС: It was with humanitarian aid. We took these buses, there were also three other drivers. We left with four buses.

КА: You went in a column, not alone?

ВС: Well yes. In a column of four minibuses and two passenger cars were also with us. I didn't know any of these drivers. We inspected these buses, refueled, went to "Epicenter" (editor's note: shopping center in Zaporizhzhia), there where everyone loads up with humanitarian aid and there same where they meet now, as then, send refugees. We loaded up with humanitarian aid, to give out humanitarian aid and so that they'd let us through in principle, because the main goal was to take out exactly people. Giving out humanitarian aid is also an important moment, but there without humanitarian aid, as far as I know, they simply might not let you through: why do you need a half-empty minibus? So we loaded up with humanitarian aid and went with four buses.

КА: This all, the "Epicenter" you're telling about, this is in Zaporizhzhia?

ВС: Yes, this is in Zaporizhzhia on Orekhovskoe highway.

КА: How did your road go? Not only how it went physically, but also how did you feel, knowing that in some time, really super small, you'd be home? What were you experiencing in this moment when you were going to Mariupol?

ВС: There was such a feeling of anticipation, probably. We left the twenty-sixth, spent the night in Orekhov, [it was] a school, I think, or kindergarten, I didn't really understand. There people sheltered us. This is a separate moment, how people help everyone. They fed us, put us to bed, I don't even know these people. Somehow this surprises me still. When we were already approaching Mariupol, I had such a feeling that now, now I'll see people I haven't seen for a long time. Really for a long time, because there was no connection for a month, I was planning to visit acquaintances. There was no connection for a long time, I wanted to give them fuel (editor's note: Here Vitaliy means that he wanted to give gasoline to people who were staying in Mariupol at that time), which the DPR fighters eventually took from us. There was such real anticipation that now... I remember these thoughts still, that now I'll enter the city, it would seem some eight-nine days we weren't in the city, but [it] seemed like eternity simply, actually.

КА: You had no apprehensions about what might happen to you?

ВС: No. Actually, I still drove around the city in my car. There was understanding that I was risking, of course. This was like roulette – it'll hit, it won't hit.

КА: But you were more afraid of shells? As far as I understand, the main fear was this.

ВС: Yes, exactly shells. We understood that this is like roulette, but if you behave correctly, don't drive where they're shooting, by probability theory, roughly speaking, most likely it won't hit. In principle we weren't especially afraid of anything. You see, there was no understanding that we needed to fear exactly DPR fighters, their laws, that they might take you captive at all, capture, that is aggression. [We then still] didn't understand many things, [for example, that we needed to fear] that aggression with which they relate. I didn't even think about this. Somehow it seemed that DPR fighters should relate to us relatively normally, to Mariupol residents especially, because supposedly earlier [Mariupol] was a relatively pro-Russian city, there were many [people] oriented pro-Russian, the same region (editor's note: this refers to the fact that Mariupol is also Donbas, like part of the territory occupied by Russia in 2014). Plus, as they said everywhere, that they're liberating the city from "Azov Brigade," from Ukrainians, from "Nazis." They're supposedly liberators, [that's how] Russians, DPR fighters presented [the invasion]. We probably thought that they'd be loyal to us, generally as to peaceful residents, to ordinary ones, because we're locals. We could pretend in any case that we're glad to see them, as we did at checkpoints. As it turned out, they don't relate to Mariupol residents like that at all, even to civilians.

КА: March 26 you left, spent the night in Orekhov, went further. How did the Donetsk People's Republic checkpoints go? Well, that is Russian, Donetsk People's Republic, I don't know how they're properly called there. In general, when you entered already occupied territory, what was happening?

ВС: If regarding posts, then Donetsk People's Republic and Russian, they're always different. They're separate from each other usually. Mainly there were Russian, Donetsk People's Republic first, as far as I know, were already exactly in Mariupol itself, at Mariupol checkpoint, at the entrance. Before this there were Russian. It surprised that, first, I saw... We, when we left Mariupol still March 18, I already saw Russian posts, naturally. Seventeen posts, I think, we passed to leave Mariupol for Ukrainian territory. When I was entering, I saw Russian military at several posts in some woolen socks, over them flip-flops – the moment was remembered like that, their ammunition [was of such] level. I had humanitarian aid. There mainly sweets, canned goods, I still had my Snickers that I brought from Mariupol, I gave out periodically also at posts along with cigarettes, since I don't smoke. Many at posts took, asking or not especially asking if they could take, took something from humanitarian aid. Someone took my supplies. You naturally don't especially resist them, like: "Of course, take." They acted quite brazenly many of them. Before us minibuses that were going in front of me, I saw how [from them] they also carried out something from humanitarian aid, some packages. And right there one went and from this package took out, a Russian, gave to some grandmother. It's not that I begrudged, but she thanked him so much, and all this looked as if he from his lordly shoulder was giving her this humanitarian aid. Though we saw at all these posts, at all villages, how they often went into private houses, right there, where the post stands on the road. These blocks, everything lies, right nearby a neighboring private house, they go into it. I understand they didn't really ask to visit either, they basically stationed themselves.

КА: That is, they also literally stole from you [to] pass off as if it's theirs and they're such good fellows, kind and wonderful, distributing this humanitarian aid?

ВС: Well yes. They didn't especially even hide that, essentially [this humanitarian aid they] took from Ukrainians, from Ukrainian volunteers. For them we were also... they weren't very glad to see us.

КА: When Russian military were stealing humanitarian aid from you literally and searching [cars], apparently they said something to you about you being Ukrainian? Were there any beacons, red flags at entrances, at these checkpoints, which were still only at the entrance to Mariupol?

ВС: Well, something that was alarming?

КА: Yes-yes-yes.

ВС: Actually no. Just the opposite, some were even relatively friendly. Some Caucasians, yes, sometimes we met, or Tajiks, I don't know, of Asian appearance, they communicated somehow more harshly. But otherwise all were quite friendly.

КА: What does communicated more harshly mean?

ВС: Somewhere they could take you out, look at tattoos or something like that. Well, or when they came in, they checked phones. Well, just with some such hatred, [it] showed a little with some such questions. Someone there didn't even ask, took humanitarian aid from me. I just remembered, one of Caucasian appearance [Russian military] just took... I had all kinds of Snickers, toffees, someone asked, I gave someone a Snickers like that. I had four-five of them lying there, he just took them from my dashboard and left, unpleasant. This, again, just now you asked, I remember, such a trifle, it's like that.

КА: But these are important trifles. So what date did you manage to enter Mariupol itself?

ВС: March 27, we entered Nikolskoye, which they renamed back to Volodarske now (editor's note: the settlement is called Volodarske), this is seventeen-twenty kilometers from Mariupol. There where this regional department of theirs is just regional. We passed it and at the Mariupol checkpoint they stopped us, our four minibuses and two passenger cars. This was just when I saw these flags already. This was such a depressing moment a bit, when I saw cars with "Donetsk People's Republic" plates. This was so depressing because they already felt at home, hung up these flags. They stopped us, told us to turn around in the other direction. A DPR fighter periodically came into our minibuses by turns, came to me. And I still had a companion, she got in at "Epicenter," asked very much to go to Mariupol. She needed to take out her mother, I think. [She] didn't know how she'd get there, she needed to get to the left bank. Well, [we] agreed to give her a ride. She just at this moment, when the DPR fighter started interrogating me, said: "I'm – roughly speaking – not involved, I'm just a passenger." She got out, that's it, I don't know her fate anymore, where she went. At this moment the DPR fighter started, the first question was: "How much do you charge for taking people out?" I was a bit taken aback, this is the first moment when I encountered this question that we supposedly transport for money. Two days before this I didn't even think that I'd go as a volunteer in a minibus, this wasn't in my life at all, I didn't know how this happens, I wasn't in the know even already riding in this minibus. I didn't understand at all what and how works with them. So I was a bit taken aback, said that I go for free. I had transparent and quite logical goals for the trip, not even a hint that [I would] take someone out for money. I told him that for free, he said in rough form, let's say: "Don't lie. I'll beat you up now" – generally attacked. Looked at the power of attorney for the minibus, we made out a power of attorney because some power of attorney was needed to enter [Mariupol], so it wouldn't be on someone else's [documents] for the minibus, otherwise they'd [be] taken. He looked at the surname of the person the power of attorney was for, there was the same surname on other minibuses. He called this surname, I don't remember anymore, said: "Again this person, here you all register to him." Generally, he didn't believe us. I had containers with gasoline that I also got at "Epicenter," some diesel for refueling and I had gasoline. I was just planning to give [all the gasoline] to my acquaintances so they could leave, they needed it. He took practically everything, except one or two containers, with the words: "Am I going to refuel with my own money." He carried it to his passenger car and told the four minibuses to follow him. He said: "Follow me or I'll shoot if you deviate."

КА: "Or I'll" – what? "Shoot?"

ВС: Well yes, then this phrase sounded more than once, and not only for me, then they said the same thing to other volunteers, a standard phrase. In principle, it was quite believable that he would shoot. We went, four buses, then two more minibuses, also white ones, the same volunteers we knew, joined us. We arrived in Nikolskoye, there the regional department was already under "Donetsk People's Republic." They brought us in. Periodically [we] communicated with these DPR fighters, they told us their propaganda about eight years: "Where were you eight years?" and "Why didn't you volunteer, didn't go to Donetsk?" We said: "We [live] in this city, we help our own, we didn't have the opportunity [to go to Donetsk], we didn't understand what was what." [The DPR fighter] said that he went to Donetsk to help once, he talked about eight years [all the time]: "Here, they bombed us for eight years, now you get it." [They] talked with us in the regional department, undressed us, looked at tattoos, looked at all things, looked at phones – found nothing. Again, they accused us that we transport for money. They didn't believe in the end anyway that we went just like that, this somehow didn't fit in their heads at all – to go somewhere under shelling just like that. In the end they let us go for some reason, said: "Well, go at your own risk."

КА: Now we'll stop for a second. I understand correctly that they detained you in Volodarske? You didn't reach Mariupol? This is essentially a village next to Mariupol.

ВС: They detained us the first time, and they released us right away. We entered the city already, we entered the Mariupol checkpoint itself, there where it's not far from Metro, there "Port City," exactly Mariupol checkpoint already. We entered Mariupol. But there they already turned us around, and we went under convoy, so to speak, under the aim of DPR fighters, back these twenty kilometers to Nikolskoye. There was the regional district department.

КА: That is, you were detained the first time still not in Volodarske, but already in Mariupol, yes? That is, you reached the city?

ВС: Yes.

КА: Got it.

ВС: We reached the city, we enter the city, you could say made a detour back, returned to Volodarske (editor's note: to Volodarske). In the end we went to Mariupol again from Volodarske. All this took time for us. In the end we were entering somewhere, I think, around three in the afternoon, we were entering Mariupol already.

КА: Three in the afternoon – that means three o'clock at night already, yes?

ВС: No-no, three in the afternoon.

КА: Ah, got it.

ВС: At 15:00 we were entering Mariupol already. According to plan we were supposed to pick up people, [addresses] that we had ours, who wanted to pick up where – their people, the organizer also gave an address [where we needed] to pick up a family. We were planning to pick up these people, well, and plus everyone willing who wanted to leave, fill the bus and leave the same day. But because of this detour to Volodarske, because they detained us at the very beginning, we spent a lot of time. We already decided that we'd have to look for somewhere to spend the night and take out people tomorrow in the morning, [it was] safer not to go at night.

КА: Can we stop here a bit? First, how long did they hold you in Nikolskoye?

ВС: Somewhere an hour and a half-two, probably.

КА: You were detained and DPR fighters accused you that you didn't go to "Donetsk People's Republic" and ORDLO for eight years, although you came to Mariupol – how did you experience this? You're like a volunteer who just joined some movement, and not quite even that. Didn't you change your mind at this moment? Didn't you think to turn around and go to Dnipro? What were you experiencing in general after this first encounter with DPR fighters?

ВС: No, there wasn't even a thought to turn around, somehow it didn't even cross my mind. First, there was no understanding yet what "Donetsk People's Republic" is in principle. Well, [we] heard about, you could say, an analog of Somalia, [that] there's lawlessness, but there was no full understanding what this is and what they're capable of. Plus, they did let us through. We communicated in the regional department, they interrogated all of us, wrote down passports. It's like they, you could say, approved us, means you can enter and leave already. We thought that their claim against us is mainly that we transport for money. These [were the] questions, as he said: "You'll take people out for money." He was really upset about people being taken out for money. But actually I don't think this bothered him much. Especially when he was taking fuel. He was afraid that I was bringing for people so they could leave. People wanted to leave through Russia to Europe, they needed to take enough gasoline for this. And here they naturally didn't have gasoline, there was diesel at that time, but there was no gasoline.