I was sent to the transit prison, and my daughter to Zaporizhzhia

КА: Katya Alexander

ВО: Victoria Obidina

КА: Hello, Victoria, greetings! Thank you for finding time to talk. How are you feeling?

ВО: Everything's good now.

КА: Excellent. Let's start with me asking you a question. Tell me, maybe there's something you wanted to clarify?

ВО: No.

КА: Good. I'll be asking you in detail about what happened, how, what you went through in recent months. I want to start from the very beginning. Can you tell me what was happening before the moment of captivity at Azovstal? What did you, as a medic and as a person who was there, see?

ВО: I'm a paramedic at a clinic, I worked at a military hospital. On March 10th, by commander's order, I went to Azovstal to help our wounded. And until May 5th, when the Red Cross organized green corridors, I was at Azovstal with my child, so they tried to get me out as a civilian. They took us to Bezymyannoe, where I didn't pass filtration.

КА: And where did you go from, from a clinic in which city?

ВО: The city of Mariupol. We had a military hospital there, I worked there before Azovstal.

КА: Why did you end up at the plant with your child, how did that happen?

ВО: We lived in Mariupol, one stop from Azovstal. So when I heard that we would be going to Azovstal, I even got happy, thinking I'll be closer to my child. There was no connection in the city anymore. I understood that they were running out of food, that I didn't know what was happening. And I made the decision to take my child with me. A boy from Azov Brigade came to us, I just turned to him: "Help me." He says: "Are you ready?" I say: "Yes." I put on armor, helmet, and we left, came home, took my child and came back to Azovstal. But unfortunately, I don't know either his name or call sign, I only know it was a boy from Azov Brigade. He's no longer alive, unfortunately.

КА: When did you pick up your daughter?

ВО: In the 20s of March.

КА: And you lived at Azovstal for a month and a half together with your daughter?

ВО: Yes.

КА: How were things there? In what conditions did you live those month and a half?

ВО: Well, the conditions were, of course... It's not a hospital. Those conditions in which we worked, I won't say they were directly terrible, but not ideal. We had enough medicine, at first there was a lot of it, but toward the end it started running out. In principle everything was normal. Very many military personnel, very heavy shelling. There were even moments when we had to say goodbye to life. My daughter once asked me: "Mama, is this our last day?" I understood, most likely, that yes. But you can't tell her that, so I said no, everything will be fine, we'll live, but I myself thought that yes, indeed, this is our last day. But we stayed alive, everything's good.

КА: Lord, thank God you stayed alive. And your daughter is four?

ВО: She was four, on October 3rd she turned 5.

КА: Happy belated birthday! A big date. It's good that you're together again, that's enormous happiness. Of course she saw wounded people, heard, saw explosions, besides her asking "Mama, is this our last day?" How else did she perceive everything that was happening?

ВО: We read books together. They gave us a "Fairy Tales" book, and we read fairy tales, we wrote letters, numbers. She was bored, of course. She asks: "Can I help you with something?" I thought for a long time what she could help me with, then decided she would distribute painkiller tablets. And so she walked around the bunker and offered painkiller tablets to our wounded. I explained to her how to give them, to whom to give them. And that's it. This way she shortened my work by almost an hour. I was in the bunker giving injections, distributing tablets, doing bandages. And she would run ahead of me, distribute tablets to everyone, I had an hour less work. Such a little helper.

КА: Incredible. And she volunteered herself? Meaning you didn't ask her?

ВО: Yes, yes. No, of course not. I'm generally against her looking at bandaging and all the rest. But if she likes it, then the main thing was not to frighten her. If she wants to look - look, I won't forbid it. Of course not where legs are torn off and not during operations. She perceived it normally, adequately. She really wants to be a doctor in the future. I think - good!

КА: How lovely! And were there many wounded?

ВО: Yes, there were many wounded. Different degrees, both severe and not severe.

КА: And you managed with the volume?

ВО: Yes. We had medics: both surgeons and nurses. So we approached each one, provided help to each one.

КА: How did you cope with this emotionally? You had both a small daughter and an enormous number of wounded, and hunger already closer to May, from the difficult unstable situation very many sick people. How did you cope with this?

ВО: She understood that I couldn't be distracted, because I was saving people's lives. So she didn't distract me. I had bandaging for the first time in my life, I encountered almost everything for the first time. But when you see a wound, you simply concentrate on the wound, everything else is pushed to the background, and you just provide help. There wasn't a situation where I'm standing next to a wounded person and I don't know what to do. There were always doctors next to us who coordinated our movements, and we helped them. So everything was normal.

КА: You say you encountered this for the first time - is this because there weren't such types of injuries at the hospital?

ВО: At the hospital I was a manipulation nurse - that's simply giving injections, taking blood, writing in a journal. I had never in my life encountered bandaging, for example. I didn't work in such departments where bandaging had to be done. But here I learned.

КА: When you were going there, did you understand that you would have to do completely different things from what you did at the hospital?

ВО: Yes, of course, I understood, but you can adapt to everything. You simply understand that if not you, then no one will help. If everyone had left Mariupol and no medics remained, then who would save our wounded?

КА: Before you picked up your daughter, who was she staying with in Mariupol?

ВО: With a nanny and relatives.

КА: With parents?

ВО: With my aunt. My mom lives in Poland with my stepfather.

КА: Before the full-scale war, before February 24th, you're a medic. That's quite an involving job, I know this firsthand, my mom is a resuscitation doctor. How did you build relationships with your daughter, how did you explain about your work, about saving lives?

ВО: She knew I worked at a hospital, that I helped people. She's a very smart girl, she understands from half a word.

КА: Motherhood is a very big and important role and separate work. And you're a medic, you have complex, responsible work. How did you manage to build life between your daughter and work? Before the full-scale war, of course.

ВО: In the morning she was at kindergarten. I was at work five days a week. Weekends we spent together, evenings - we were together. Everything was good. My work satisfied me, I went to it like to a holiday. After work we would go into a store with her, buy various treats, maybe some games. In the evenings we sat and played. Everything was good, we lived, enjoyed life. But then fate separated us for half a year.

КА: How good that you're together again. So it turns out from March you're at Azovstal, you pick up your daughter, she comes to you. How did they try to evacuate you, how did you make this decision? When did it become clear that you needed to somehow escape together with your daughter?

ВО: On May 5th, by commander's order, the Red Cross organized green corridors. They tried to get me out as a civilian, in civilian clothes, of course, without any military documents. We went to the city of Bezymyannoe. There was a tent city there, where people undergo filtration. I didn't pass filtration. They said they would take my daughter to an orphanage, and I would go into captivity. I understood that on the 7th buses would be moving to Zaporizhzhia and asked to live not in a cell until the 7th, but together with her. Because she needs care, needs someone to sleep with her, needs to be fed, and no one will deal with this. They allowed me to live with her in the tent city. When I entered the tent where we lived, a girl saw me, says: "What's wrong?" She sees that I'm upset. I say: "Didn't pass filtration," told my story. She says: "If you want, I'll help you get your child out." I decided not to refuse, wrote a power of attorney for her, that I allow Alisa to be taken to Zaporizhzhia. And on the 7th I went to see Alisa off, there were many people there. I simply mixed in with the crowd, got on the bus and left. So it turns out, I escaped from the filtration point. We rode for 8 hours, in Mangush, at a checkpoint, they stop the entire convoy completely. I wasn't sitting with her - I was sitting in the middle of the bus, and she was sitting with the girl in the back. It happened that I couldn't get on another bus. When they came in, they already knew what I looked like, because they had photographed us at the filtration point, and immediately approached me. They said "Girl, take your child, things and get out." They searched me, told me to put the child in the back seat of the car. I say: "No." They ask me why. I say: "If you need me, then why do you need the child? What will you do? Can she continue riding?" And they allowed me. I went by convoy, and Alisa went to Zaporizhzhia.

КА: So she returned to that girl?

ВО: Yes. She brought her to Zaporizhzhia and gave her to Zlata Nekrasova, this is the deputy head of Zaporizhzhia Oblast Military Administration [editor's note: oblasna viis'kova administratsiia]. She met her in Zaporizhzhia. Alisa lived with Zlata for several days, and then her uncle came for her, picked her up, handed her over to grandmother - that's how they ended up in Poland.

КА: Uncle - that's your brother?

ВО: Mom's cousin brother.

КА: I would ask you to pause on each point you just told me about. Can you tell me first of all about military documents. Am I understanding correctly that when you were assigned to Azovstal, they gave you some documents that changed your status to military medic status?

ВО: I was initially a military medic, I've been on contract for more than a year already. So I had a military ID, which I couldn't take with me, because they checked all our documents, they searched us, this would have immediately given me away. So I left it at Azovstal. Of course, without a phone, I had to break the phone, because all correspondence gets restored and they would have seen everything, and I didn't need that. So the phone also stayed at Azovstal. I only took my passport and driver's license. I had no other documents.

КА: Can you tell me how filtration went? They brought you - what happened next? What did they ask you? How did you understand that they were taking you into captivity? Can you remember in detail what was happening?

ВО: Mainly these were people, most likely, from the "Donetsk People's Republic." Because by uniform very similar and they spoke without accent. But we didn't see faces, they were in masks, only eyes were visible. Mainly they asked how we ended up at Azovstal, how we came out, where we lived, what we saw. I said I was civilian, lived with civilians, that we didn't see soldiers - they came, brought food and left. I seemed to have already passed filtration. It happened that in the bunker Alisa was filmed on video, so the world would know that there are still people at Azovstal, there are children, there are wounded, there are women, medics - everything is there. And in the video it says that Alisa is 4 years old, that she's in the bunker and asking for evacuation. Further there was subtext that mama is a military medic who helps our wounded. And they show me: "Your child?" I understand, well, where to resist when she's next to me? The face is identical. I say yes, and there it's written that mama is a military medic. Well, what can you do, military medic, so military medic. I resisted for a long time, but it didn't help me.

КА: And what did they start saying and doing to you?

ВО: They said I was detained for 30 days and if they don't find anything on me, they'll simply let me continue further, where I was going. They didn't touch me there, just asked what unit I'm from and that's it. But then, when I already tried to escape in Mangush, when they stopped me, of course they took me for interrogations.

КА: We'll move to that now. At the moment when they told you that you're detained and it became clear that you would have to part with your daughter, what were you experiencing, how did you feel?

ВО: Most of all I worried that she simply wouldn't be nearby at that moment. Because I understood that captivity - they would beat testimony out of me. If Alisa were near me, I perfectly understand that they would torture me with her. That is, they could crush her, she would scream. And who would allow their child to be hurt? So I was ready to write a power of attorney for any person just so Alisa wouldn't be nearby.

КА: Do you know who this girl was that you wrote the power of attorney for?

ВО: Yes. This is Valeria, her surname is Zelenskaya. Same surname. She helped me.

КА: Just a girl?

ВО: This is a random person who simply offered their help. And I couldn't refuse her. Otherwise Alisa would have simply gone to an orphanage.

КА: And to an orphanage, surely, some Russian one.

ВО: Of course.

КА: When you understood that you had only two days to say goodbye to your daughter, how did you try to explain to her what was happening in general?

ВО: I told her she would go to uncle, that they would take care of her there. And I would come soon, take care of all my business and come.

КА: How did she react to this?

ВО: She knew I wouldn't abandon her, that I would really come to her, since she's going to uncle. I told her his name, told her everything would be good with them. She maybe didn't fully understand all the seriousness of this situation.

КА: You say "told her his name." She had never seen him?

ВО: No.

КА: So he had been living in Poland for a very long time?

ВО: He lives in Western Ukraine.

КА: How did you understand that you would specifically hand your child over to him? You had neither phone nor anything. How did you manage to coordinate or plan where your daughter would go?

ВО: The Red Cross came in and offered to call relatives. I, of course, didn't refuse. I called my mom, said we had left Azovstal, that I'm not passing filtration - what should I do with Alisa, they're taking her to an orphanage? Mom says: "Somehow get her to Zaporizhzhia." She gave me uncle's number, mom's brother, who was supposed to pick her up. Only this way we coordinated our movements. I tell her - leave Poland urgently, because you'll need to pick up your daughter. And that's it. I said I'm going into captivity, that everything will be good. And so mom already continued maintaining relations with uncle, and they already coordinated their movements without me. I had this one call.

КА: And how did your mom react to what you told her? That you're going into captivity.

ВО: Of course, she got very upset, but on the other hand, was glad because I had left Azovstal. Azovstal was shelled very heavily, and it's unknown which day would have become the last in our life. Because they shelled us very much, and we very often said goodbye to life. But here, when there's already peaceful sky overhead, let's call it that, they're not shooting anymore, I'm at least alive. Well captivity, we'll try to get me out somehow.

КА: How long had you not seen your mom?

ВО: I communicated with mom by video calls, just by calls. But I hadn't seen her since November. In November she left for Poland and that's it, we didn't see each other anymore, only by video calls.

КА: So this isn't connected to the war?

ВО: No, no. They left before this.

КА: And so further: you make an agreement with this girl, you understand that you're not passing filtration, you understand that a bus is already going toward Zaporizhzhia. How did you decide to get on this bus where Alisa, your daughter, was riding? How did you decide to escape? You knew that one way or another they had all your data.

ВО: I thought I would simply put her on the bus and go back. But such an opportunity presented itself: here I am already on the bus, I thought, why not try, not use this chance? I was putting her on not under escort, no one was watching me. Why not try? I simply got on the bus and tried.

КА: Did you think about the fact that at the next checkpoint something might happen?

ВО: Of course, I expected them to take me off. Because a person escaped from them, and they don't raise an alarm - somehow this was suspicious on one hand. On the other hand, at least I know my child was fed, that she was under supervision at least for those eight hours that we were riding. Well it happened this way, didn't pass filtration, couldn't escape. Well what can you do, it means it was supposed to be this way.

КА: And further, it turns out, they stop the bus after eight hours - where was this already?

ВО: In Mangush at a checkpoint, former traffic police post.

КА: What happens next?

ВО: They still allow me to send Alisa further, and I simply get in a car. They take me to Mangush district police department, bring me into a room, start beating me. They try to extract some information, but understand they can't get anything from me. They put me in a cell where I sat until May 9th. So it turns out, two days. On May 9th they took me to Donetsk OBOP - this is the department for fighting organized crime. There they again tried to interrogate me, and when they understood that I'm not giving any information they need, they tell me: "You understand that you can't refuse an interview?" Yes, I say, I perfectly understand, because otherwise they would beat me and I would tell them what they want anyway.

КА: And what did they ask, what did they want to hear?

ВО: Mainly they asked who my commander is, who I served with, how many people were at Azovstal, how much food, medicine, how much longer Azovstal would hold out. Of course everything they got was untrue. They left me alone because they understood they couldn't extract anything from me. Then we gave an interview, I said that everything is good in Donetsk, that I'm staying to live there and appealed to Irina Vereshchuk to return my child to me. Of course I didn't want this, but life is more precious. So I had to say what they forced me to.

КА: This interview, how did they force you to do it? Did you understand that if you didn't give it, they would simply kill you?

ВО: No. They would beat me. They beat you where? On ribs, on legs, they don't touch the face. So they would beat me harder and I think I would have given this interview anyway. Life is more precious than them breaking something on you. Those same ribs for example.

КА: Did you have serious fractures, bruises?

ВО: I had bruises. I was lucky, I think, more than many girls. They hit me on the head several times, grabbed me by the neck, pressed me to the ground, hit me on the ribs several times. There were no fractures, but mainly bruises.

КА: And you decided, naturally, in forced conditions, to say what they demanded from you?

ВО: Of course. I think any person in my place would have done the same. After the interview they allowed me to call my mom. This way mom found out I was in Donetsk. And I found out that Alisa had reached Zaporizhzhia. That's the only thing I knew.

КА: This first call from captivity, how did it go?

ВО: I tried to ask mom about things that were interesting in Donetsk. They told me what I could talk about, what I couldn't. And what questions I needed to ask so mom would answer. But I, of course, tried with all my might to show that she shouldn't answer truthfully. Mom understood me. So they didn't achieve any truth.

КА: And what did they ask you to find out?

ВО: Mainly, where mom works, where they live. There were different questions.

КА: Did they want some tactical information or information about your family?

ВО: I don't know this, because they didn't let me in on this. They told me: "Where does mom work?" - "How do I know where she works?" - "You should ask where. Where do they live?" I say: "I don't know, I only know Poland, I don't know where mom lives" - "You need to ask what city she lives in." I don't know why they needed this information.

КА: And how did you convey to mom that she shouldn't answer these questions?

ВО: This was a video call, I specifically didn't look at the camera. I initially started the conversation with "mom, there's no one in the room." This should have already alerted her, because I never expressed myself with such phrases. I tried to convince her there's no one in the room. I think she perfectly understood that someone is in the room. I constantly tried not to look at the camera, but to look in different directions, to show that there's someone else sitting around me in this room, that I'm not alone here. Mom understood me perfectly and therefore didn't say anything good.

КА: And how many people were with you in one room when you called mom?

ВО: Four people.

КА: Did you understand who these were? Did they have any identifying marks?

ВО: Yes, I understood, because I lived with them almost a month.

КА: Meaning in captivity?

ВО: In Donetsk. In the department for fighting organized crime. I lived there until May 31st.

КА: I have another question about the first interrogations, where you didn't say anything. Were you prepared for the fact that they would beat and torture you? How did you endure this?

ВО: Yes, I perfectly understood this couldn't be avoided. And how else? Well they beat you, you can't do anything about it. Or tell everything completely. But in the end you understand that people remained there with whom you served, whom you treated. And it's unknown how they'll try to get out of Azovstal. So you couldn't tell about them under any circumstances. So I made up some stories on the spot, tried to convince them it was true. When they understood they wouldn't get the truth, they stopped beating.

КА: But at the same time they forced you to do an interview?

ВО: Yes.

КА: At what moment did you start thinking that torture, beatings and interrogations are inevitable and that you would have to go through this?

ВО: I understood this when they told me I was going into captivity. I understand that I'm one of the first military personnel who got into captivity specifically from Azovstal.

КА: Is this because they tried to evacuate you as a civilian?

ВО: Yes. All the others by commander's order were taken into captivity a little later than they got me out.

КА: So you were for them an opportunity to extract information they didn't have yet?

ВО: Yes.

КА: Can you tell me about this OBOP where they held you? They brought you there on May 9th. What was happening there, in what conditions did you live, what did it all look like?

ВО: They fed us there once a day, this was only in the evening. And then if no one forgot about you, they mainly tried. Not counting these beatings in the beginning, then no one touched me anymore, after I gave the interview. I don't know what they were waiting for. And then on May 31st they transferred me to a temporary detention center and that's it.

КА: There in Donetsk?

ВО: Yeah. There, I would say, conditions were a little better. If comparing, for example, they fed me three times a day. Yes, this food is tasteless, cockroaches get into it, but you want to eat. You simply remove the cockroach and continue eating. They didn't give water, we drank water from the tap. No household chemicals, nothing like that. If some new girl gets into the temporary detention center, then she has shampoo or something else, we shared, asked. Windows didn't open, vents were clogged, so they didn't work. There was no fresh air, it was summer. They didn't take us for walks. You just sit within four walls and that's it. They took us to shower once a week and then by desire. Sometimes they might not take us for months. Girls told me that before I arrived, they didn't take them to shower for a month. Water flows from the tap, you fill a bottle and you can wash your hair and wash yourself. We managed as we could, of course. Then on July 1st they transferred me to Olenivka. That's how I got to Olenivka. They settled me in a two-person cell, eleven of us lived there.

КА: In a two-person cell?

ВО: In a two-person, yes. This is about four by five meters.

КА: When they transferred you to Olenivka, to this cell, the people you sat there with - were these all military personnel?

ВО: Initially I sat with people who decided, it turns out, to betray Ukraine. Some were military, some were civilians who had never been connected to the military sphere. Initially I sat with those people who decided to remain on Russian Federation territory. These were military personnel who simply decided to remain in Mariupol or nearby cities. With them, of course, it was a little harder, because their thoughts are only about Russia, and I'm the only one who was supposed to go on exchange to Ukraine. Of course, we didn't have common topics in principle. But nevertheless, we didn't hurt each other. We all perfectly understand, we don't even judge them. Well because if a person's house remained, for example, all relatives are on that side. I think this is each person's personal choice.

КА: How did they end up in captivity in that case, if they took a pro-Russian position?

ВО: And there's no law for them by which they can get out. Russia hasn't yet created a law by which former military personnel can get out after filtration and remain to live on Russian Federation territory. So they're still sitting.

КА: Well they chose Russia...

ВО: Yes - let them wave their flag. Then they moved me to a six-person cell. Twenty-four people lived there, these were girls from different units, there was Azov Brigade, and territorial defense, and medics. We found new friends this way, we supported each other. We all were supposed to go on exchange, we all waited for this moment. They gradually started taking us to Russia. We knew that Taganrog is a distribution point and from there they travel all over Russia, distribute to colonies. We remained in Olenivka, but gradually they took everyone in stages - boys and girls. On October 14th there were four of us left - three bakers and me. They come in, call three surnames, but don't call mine. I say: "What about me?" - "You're not on the lists." I started raising alarm, I say: "Call me someone, a supervisor or someone else I can talk with." I understood this was the last stage to Russia, that there would be no more stages and where I would go next - unknown. Plus I asked them to let me call my child, to find out what's with her, did she arrive, did she meet with mom, what's happening in general. On October 3rd it was her birthday, and on the 4th they let me call mom. This was a very short conversation, I only managed to congratulate my child and say: "Mom, I'm in Olenivka." This way mom found out where I was. Because Ukraine sends requests, and they answer that there's no such person.

КА: So they were trying to look for you, but the Russians weren't?

ВО: Yes. Russians didn't confirm where I was. And so when on October 14th I started raising alarm, they told me, fine, we'll send you to Russia since you want it so much. They tied our eyes, hands, put us in a "Ural," we rode for a very long time somewhere. When we arrived, they immediately bent us in half. We couldn't open our eyes, we had to run bent over, like a stapler. We with closed eyes, they simply directed us - left, right, step. You don't know which direction the step is - up or down. Let's say they might say - right. And there's a closed door, you hit your head. For them, it feels like this is entertainment. When they took DNA test on the envelope was written "city of Taganrog." This way we found out they brought us to Taganrog, because no one explains where we're going. On the 17th again "with things to the exit," around five in the morning, maybe a little earlier. We came out, they gathered us all, gave out things, put us in a car, tied eyes, hands. Then they put us on a cargo plane, and we flew somewhere. We understood we flew to Crimea, to Dzhankoy. They allowed us to free our eyes, but hands were tied, they put us in "Urals" and took us somewhere. The girls were from different territories of Ukraine, we knew the last exchanges were near Zaporizhzhia and we saw the road a little. We understood we're going toward Zaporizhzhia, but until the last moment didn't believe this was an exchange. In the end, of course, we saw a bridge, saw Ukrainian buses. But we were still afraid something might go wrong, something might fall through. When we crossed this bridge, we found ourselves on native land... This is an indescribable feeling. For us, finally, it was all over.

КА: When they started taking you out, when they forced you to run around, take DNA tests, you didn't understand what was happening?

ВО: We didn't even think about exchange. We didn't know until the last moment that this was an exchange.

КА: You thought this was a transfer to another prison?

ВО: Yes. We thought we were simply going to another prison.

КА: About the exchange I want to ask in more detail a little later. I want to know about Olenivka. It turns out, from July 1st, three and a half months, you sat in Olenivka. What was happening there? First you sat in a cell with people who chose Russia. Then you moved to a cell with military girls. What was happening? Did they beat you? Did they beat the girls? How did you survive there?

ВО: In Olenivka they didn't beat girls. There was more moral pressure on us. They mainly torment boys very severely. And you have to listen to this. You understand this is a guy you served with, who protected you, and you can't help him with anything. We simply had to be silent at this moment. Just listen to how they beat him very severely.

КА: Was it very audible?

ВО: Yes. They gave us books in Olenivka. I think this was the only joy that was there.

КА: What books?

ВО: The books were from the library. There were different ones, mainly, of course, this was Russian history. But there were also novels, there was also classics. For example "Anna Karenina," "Twilight," "Harry Potter." There were different books. I think this was the only joy that was in Olenivka. They gave us household chemicals very rarely, you can safely say we almost didn't see it. They brought us water from a stop in fire trucks. In August it started blooming, and this was with a taste of mud, but you want to drink. There was no medicine, food was tasteless, not nutritious, monotonous every day, came with stones. For example, no one washes the grain, without salt. It was terrible.

КА: How did you try to support each other with the girls? In a captivity situation, when you absolutely don't know when they'll release you home, whether they'll release you, whether they'll beat you - how did you try to hold on?

ВО: Of course, they constantly misinformed us, that no one needs you, everyone forgot about you, they don't want to exchange you, they don't request you, they don't confirm you. There were different rumors. But we knew we're needed by our relatives, we're needed by our country, that everything possible is being done to exchange us. With the girls, when someone misses someone - we hugged, found words that could support. We believed that someday that day would come, we would meet with our relatives and everything would be good for us.

КА: And where did you get this strength to believe that you would return, that everything would be good? Where did you personally draw this strength from to continue thinking this way?

ВО: In principle, this is probably only faith in all this. We perfectly understood that the government is doing everything possible to get us out of there. But all this isn't as simple as we think. The second side doesn't always agree to those conditions that the first side puts forward. We perfectly understood that it's not Ukraine not requesting us, but Russia not confirming us.

КА: How often in captivity did you think about your daughter, how did you cope with separation from her?

ВО: Of course I thought about her every day. Mainly these were thoughts, I hoped everything was good with her, that she met with grandmother, with my stepfather, that everything was good for them, that they managed to go to Poland after all. I constantly asked them to let me call, to confirm my thoughts at least. Not knowing - that's scary.

КА: How did you cope with not knowing where your daughter was, whether she met with your mom? How did you experience this in general?

ВО: Considering I had no other choice - this is only to believe and hope that everything is good there. I tried to distract myself with books. I believed that everything would work out for them, and they met, and everything is good for them. There was no other way to confirm this, there was no connection with them.

КА: Maybe thoughts about your daughter, memories about peaceful life, helped?

ВО: Yes, there was a lot of time to think, to realize what you did wrong in life, how to live further. Different things. We often imagined our first meetings with relatives. How this would happen, what we would try first and whether we would try. Different things. You had to distract yourself with something, occupy yourself with something, because if you concentrate on one thing, you could go a little crazy.

КА: And what were these thoughts?

ВО: Mainly I thought that exchange would be soon. It seemed exchanges should happen every month. Somewhere information appeared that an exchange was being prepared and, of course, everyone hoped we would get into this exchange. Who already decided what for themselves - where they'll go, maybe rest somewhere, maybe buy something, how they'll spend time. Different thoughts.

КА: And what did you dream about? ВО: I, of course, dreamed of meeting my daughter, maybe going somewhere to rest with her. I was thinking about what car to buy. I once asked my daughter, she said she wanted a red one. So, I'll get some kind of red one. Of course, meeting with relatives, where I would want to serve in the future, in what city I would want to live.

КА: What, perhaps, changed in your thoughts during the time you were in captivity? For example, before captivity you thought one way, and after captivity you decided that you need to live now. I'm speaking very abstractly.

ВО: The only thing I decided for myself is that you shouldn't put off until tomorrow what you can do today. Very often we want some kind of treat, but no, we'd rather save that money, we constantly deny ourselves something. You shouldn't. You need to live for today. If you want something today – take it and buy it. Because life has shown that all this material stuff, and it's not as long as it seems. It can end at any second, so it's worth living today.

КА: During the time in Olenivka, during those long three and a half months, what was the most terrible thing?

ВО: The most terrible thing is, of course, when they mock the boys. That's really very scary.

КА: How did the guards treat you? Did they interact with you at all or not?

ВО: There were different guards. They had rotation every month, there were normal ones who really, how to explain this, treated you with understanding. At least they didn't shout, they took us for walks. Rarely, but they did. Sometimes they took us to shower in warm water, not ice cold. They were different. Mostly, of course, those who despised us, said, why did you go, you should have stayed home. Why did you need to go serve.

КА: How did you react to this?

ВО: Well, we understood why we went to serve. Everyone has their own situation, everyone has their own views. So, how did we react? We didn't react at all, we just let it go in one ear and out the other and that's all.

КА: Did they try to threaten you somehow? With physical violence or somehow else?

ВО: No, in Olenivka they didn't touch us. They didn't touch the girls.

КА: You say they didn't touch you in Olenivka, but somewhere else they used physical or emotional violence against you?

ВО: Taganrog.

КА: What happened there?

ВО: Mostly we sat in cells. They rarely took us out of the cells, they didn't take us for walks. But when we went to interrogations or somewhere else – you're constantly running with closed eyes, I said, you can hit your head somewhere when they direct you. They constantly scare you that they'll release the dogs now. Mostly moral [pressure]. They made us learn the Russian anthem, sing it.

КА: This is what happened after Olenivka?

ВО: Yes. Those three days that I spent in Taganrog... I was luckier, I think, because other girls who went after Taganrog... It happened that we were transported in groups – some earlier, some later. We, four girls, were the last to leave for exchange from Olenivka. Before they took us out, there were different transports to Russia. We understood that girls were taken to different places in Russia – some to Kursk Oblast, some to Valuyki, some somewhere else. There, others had torture, many could be beaten with electric current, with electroshock, some had other things. It was different. So I think I was a bit luckier.

КА: I want to ask more about Taganrog. The last weeks in Olenivka, when people were already being taken away, there were few of you left – what were your thoughts? What did you think about what was happening, why you remained?

ВО: They told us that Olenivka would simply be mothballed, there's no heating there, so they're redistributing us to those colonies where there is heating. Just so we wouldn't freeze, wouldn't get sick, because you don't get any medical help anyway. When there were four of us left, I understood that three bakers remained. But I remained, I didn't know why I remained. I hadn't thought about it yet. But on the last day, when everyone started being taken away, and I'm staying – no, something's not right here. They just told me that I wasn't a prisoner of war, but administratively detained, because they detained me at the filtration point.

КА: But essentially they knew you were a prisoner of war?

ВО: Of course. For the first two or three months I was still a prisoner of war, and then somehow I became administratively detained. I only learned about this just before the exchange. When I was supposed to remain alone, then I learned that I was administratively detained.

КА: Did the guards tell you this?

ВО: Yes.

КА: How did they, especially in these last days, communicate with you, what did they say, did they want any additional information from you?

ВО: No, they didn't want anything. We were just waiting for when they would take us.

КА: But this state – it's incredibly oppressive, when you sit and don't understand how much longer you have to sit, how long this could continue – a week, a month, a year. How did you experience this?

ВО: Every day we waited that maybe today they'll take us, maybe not today, we already had our bags packed. We already knew that any day now, in the coming days this would happen. When they came to us and said "with things, let's go," we were already packed, we were already ready for this.

КА: Did you somehow count days, somehow try to check with reality – after all, you had neither phones nor watches?

ВО: We drew on the walls.

КА: Wow. With what?

ВО: Markers. Whoever had a marker, who managed to smuggle it in somehow. We borrowed from each other, drew on the walls, scratched on the walls.

КА: What did you draw?

ВО: Numbers. What day of the week it is today, what date it is today, how many days we've been sitting, so everyone could count.

КА: Did this help?

ВО: Yes. At least we knew how many days had passed since our detention. What day of the week. Because if you don't keep this data, you just get lost in reality.

КА: How did you first decide to do this?

ВО: When I arrived, the girls were already keeping all this. So I just joined them and that's all.

КА: When you arrived in Olenivka and were moved to a cell with military girls, what did they tell you about Olenivka? Maybe they shared how everything was organized there?

ВО: They told different things, mostly we tried not to touch on all these topics. It's all clear in principle anyway: breakfast, lunch, dinner, lights out, wake up. Nobody really bothered us there. Just a small amount of [space] with many people, some kind of food. But these are all trifles compared to how they treated the boys.

КА: Did you have any contact with the guys?

ВО: No. We weren't allowed to communicate with them. They lived in barracks on the second floor of the pre-trial detention center, and we lived on the first. So even if we could somehow cross paths with a guy, there was definitely a convoy with him. If we exchange even one word, then one of us would have trouble. So it wasn't allowed.

КА: Did they let you out at all? The exercise yard, as I understand, was in some relative access. Did you eat in cells or on the contrary did you eat in the cafeteria?

ВО: No, we did everything in the cells. Instead of windows we had iron shields with drilled holes. Air didn't circulate, because it was summer. They let us out to the yard for 20 minutes once a week, once every two weeks. The yard is also small, you can't really walk around much in it. At least walk a little, stand, breathe air – that's already an achievement.

КА: You had no connection with the outside world at all?

ВО: None at all. We had radio playing and sometimes they turned on Russian news.

КА: How did you handle this?

ВО: Not at all. We knew that everything that comes out on Russian news is not true. But when we heard that Ukraine shelled someone, we, of course, were very happy.

КА: Didn't the guards react to this?

ВО: We rejoiced in our own way. They didn't look into our cells, we discussed among ourselves, rejoiced and that's all.

КА: Were there no cameras in the cells? Surveillance cameras.

ВО: In Olenivka – no. In all others there were.

КА: I would like to go back and find out about that conversation with mom when you learned that she was with your daughter, that she's in Poland. What was happening inside you at that moment?

ВО: Relief, probably. I learned that the child was being looked after, that everything was fine with her, that mom was in Poland, they were safe. Then I calmed down, I knew that everything was fine with them, I could sit calmly and wait for when they would exchange me.

КА: What changed?

ВО: Before that, of course, there was worry. You don't know what's with your relatives, where they are, whether they met each other. That's hard. But when you already learned that everything was fine... And so they learned that I was in Olenivka and it turned out that this call became fateful for me. Otherwise I might not have gotten into the exchange.

КА: Why?

ВО: Because when they submitted a request where I was, nobody confirmed, they said we don't have such a person and that's all. But because of that call mom learned where I was, that I was in Olenivka.

КА: Did she put you on some lists?

ВО: Yes. Every relative tries to pull out their acquaintance. So they submitted lists for exchange, at least just to clarify where I am, whether I'm alive or not anymore. And when lists come, for example, to that same Olenivka, from there they write "we don't have such a person." And parents continue trying to search where you are, what's with you.

КА: Do I understand correctly that from the moment you left Azovstal you spoke with mom only twice? The first time when you asked to take the daughter and the second time in Olenivka?

ВО: The second time after the interview in Donetsk and the third time October 4th.

КА: And the first time – this was in May?

ВО: At the filtration point, when the Red Cross allowed me to call, I told mom that I had left Azovstal, but I'm not passing filtration and I'm going into captivity.

КА: And the second time, after the interview, when was this approximately?

ВО: May 12th somewhere.

КА: During the second conversation your daughter hadn't reached Poland yet?

ВО: No, she had just reached Zaporizhzhia.

КА: So she and mom hadn't seen each other yet?

ВО: No. She hadn't even met with uncle then yet.

КА: In all this time did you hear your daughter even once?

ВО: Only October 4th.

КА: What was that like?

ВО: She said that she loves me very much, said that she misses me very much. Of course that's... The child is waiting, and I can't even see her. That's, of course, hard. But you mustn't show that everything is so hard. You need to talk with her instead, that here, I love you, soon we'll meet, soon I'll come, we'll be together.

КА: You held yourself together the whole conversation, as I understood, quite short?

ВО: Yes, yes.

КА: And after you talked?

ВО: Well after I, of course, cried. But I was happy that everything was fine with them.

КА: How did you come to yourself after hearing your daughter for the first time?

ВО: Well basically, I'm telling you, I was just glad that everything was fine with her. Now I can sit further with a peaceful soul. There was no longer that unknowing and misunderstanding of what was happening.

КА: Olenivka, it turns out, is being distributed, you're taken to Taganrog. Can you remember that day when they started taking you away, what was happening? How did that terrible story with conditions in Taganrog begin?

ВО: When they took us from Olenivka, they blindfolded us, tied our hands. We rode to Taganrog. When we arrived, we didn't know where we had arrived. They told us how to jump off the truck, because we were still blindfolded, with tied hands. Then they told us that we need to constantly stand in a bent position, that our eyes should always be closed. We just listened to commands and that's all. They took fingerprints, photographed us, took us to interrogations several times. But they feed you three times a day, there we saw buckwheat for the first time. They feed you well there.

КА: When they took you to interrogations, what did they try to find out?

ВО: There wasn't anything like that there. There's just a sheet, you read the question and answer that question yourself. Mostly it's just: what's your name, when's your birthday, where did you serve, as what did you serve – such questions about nothing questions. From what day are you in captivity, when did you arrive, where did you arrive, where did you study, who did you marry. About life simply. They didn't touch you there, nobody beat you, didn't beat anything out of you.

КА: But you were blindfolded and they made you overcome some obstacles. What was this for at all? So you would get there?

ВО: You can't walk there at all, so you're always running and running in a half-bent state. They don't touch us physically, but yes, if you didn't bend down all the way, they bend you down with a rubber baton. Eyes there should constantly always be closed. They say "Opened your eyes – lost an eye." That is, you couldn't open your eyes, you constantly had to keep them closed, because they could see that your eyes were open.

КА: This is on the territory of the prison in Taganrog?

ВО: Yes.

КА: And all three days they made you walk with closed eyes?

ВО: When you come out into the corridor from your cell – yes. But around the cell you can move as you wish. But, like everywhere, I think, you can't touch the bed from wake-up to lights out. All day you can sit on the floor, at the table, but not on the bed. At 6 in the morning the bed is made, at 10 in the evening the bed is unfolded for sleep.

КА: And running in a half-bent state – was this all three days or only the first day?

ВО: Every time they take you out of the cell.

КА: Did they take you out often?

ВО: Differently. Sometimes for interrogation, sometimes to clarify some other moments. Every morning for inspection.

КА: For inspection?

ВО: We came out, they came to us and checked for prohibited items. But what prohibited items do we have, if even the clothes on us weren't ours?

КА: What did you wear all this time?

ВО: All this time we wore whatever. In Taganrog they completely took our things and gave us uniforms – there was a shirt, tunic and pants. The shoes weren't ours either, they gave us slippers, socks, well and underwear they also gave us. They completely undressed us and gave us all theirs.

КА: Sitting there in Taganrog, what did you think was happening, what would happen next?

ВО: We thought that we just arrived, they would just redistribute us to some other colony, we would move to another colony where we would stay until they exchange us.

КА: Who did you sit with in Taganrog?

ВО: We had a two-person cell. I lived with a girl and that's all.

КА: Even in a two-person cell just the two of you?

ВО: Yeah.

КА: She was also military?

ВО: Yes.

КА: What did you talk about with her while sitting together in the cell? Maybe you told something about yourself, about your daughter, about something else?

ВО: Different things. You had to communicate, time goes faster that way, there were different conversations. Mostly this was on some generalized topics. You don't always tell about yourself, because you don't know what kind of person is sitting next to you and how this will turn against you.

КА: I just wanted to ask, that maybe stories about your daughter could make your emotional state a little better, but apparently you didn't tell anything at all so as not to harm?

ВО: Yes.

КА: So you didn't share with anyone there?

ВО: We talked about different topics. Everyone knew that I had a child. Of course, with some we discussed this, with others we didn't. All people are different, so not everyone is interested in this, not everyone wants to communicate, everyone has their own opinion.

КА: And in those last months, especially Taganrog and Olenivka, what helped you continue to endure all this?

ВО: Probably faith that sometime they would exchange us and we would meet with relatives. Sometime this had to happen.

КА: Didn't you have fear that they would kill you or somehow physically maim you?

ВО: No. They touched mainly in Donetsk, in Mangush. And all the rest of the time they didn't touch the girls anymore. That is, what happened in Taganrog, I won't say it was so terrible as in Donetsk. At least in my situation it was like that.

КА: Next you sit three days in Taganrog, what happens next? Do they take you on a cargo plane directly from this city?

ВО: They tied our hands and eyes and put us in a convoy car. We rode, apparently to the airport, I don't know, somewhere we rode, maybe some airfield. There they transferred us to a cargo plane, sat us on the floor, we sat Christmas tree style with blindfolded eyes, tied hands – between each other's legs, it turns out. And so we flew, as we understood later, this was Dzhankoi. There they allowed us to free our eyes a little, because we had to somehow climb into the car with tied hands, they helped us climb in. We had no escort, the escort was driving behind the car, we could peek at the road. That's how we understood that we were going toward Zaporizhzhia.

КА: When you understood this, that the exchange was happening in Zaporizhzhia, what did you feel, what was happening with you?

ВО: Until the very end we were afraid that maybe something would go wrong, that something would break, that the exchange would fall through. Only when we crossed the bridge, stepped on our Ukrainian land, breathed our air – it seemed even easier to breathe somehow. When we heard our native language, they started hugging us, congratulating us, saying that everything was over for us, that there wouldn't be such things anymore, that everything would be good now. They gave us phones so we could contact relatives. They gave us necessities, household chemicals. They help us make documents now, provide medical help. Everything is good now. For the first few days we couldn't believe that everything was over. We have habits left. We eat at speed, if we stopped somewhere, immediately hands behind the back, and then: "Stop! Why hands behind the back?" We can already eat with a fork, not a spoon. We can not at speed, but enjoy food. You try to fight these habits.

КА: How was your meeting with your daughter?

ВО: We haven't had a meeting yet. She's in Poland, and I'm still in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, undergoing rehabilitation. Everyone will have it differently – some longer, some shorter. Maybe in three weeks, maybe in a month I'll only go to her. We only see each other through video calls, we communicate by regular phone.

КА: How was your first contact in freedom, how did you video call her and say "mama will be nearby soon"?

ВО: We talked with her for a very long time. I said that soon we would meet, that everything would be fine. Now we communicate, of course, she tells what new toys she gets, how she spent the day, how many teeth she's already lost, what the fairy gave her for it. Now everything is good, she's just waiting for me. She constantly calls: "Mama, will you come in a week?" And I say: "No, I won't come yet, still in the hospital, when I get better – then I'll come."

КА: Did she understand and does she understand whether mama just went away or mama got sick? Does she know that you were in Russian captivity?

ВО: She knew from the beginning that they took me, she was very worried. But when she already met with grandmother, grandmother tried to somehow brighten all this and said that I just went to work. I just work, when I can get free, then I'll come to her. Alisa all this time thought that I was just at work.

КА: Didn't she ask questions why so? Why mama calls so rarely, for example.

ВО: They told her that I was very busy and constantly working, that I couldn't be distracted.

КА: Maybe your mom told you about some of her questions? What was happening with her during this time?

ВО: She constantly called me and said how her day went, showed toys, asked how I was doing. By phone, but she was talking to herself at this time. That is, she pretended that she was communicating with me.

КА: Did this happen often?

ВО: Almost every day.

КА: Did she tell you about this, your daughter?

ВО: "Mama I constantly called you, told you everything, showed new toys." I say: "I see." Then mom added, told how it really was.

КА: When you first not only heard her but also saw her – what was that like?

ВО: I was, of course, very glad. She grew a lot, her thoughts are completely different now. She's studying Polish, English. She expresses herself differently, she's developed beyond her years.

КА: If any questions will emotionally catch you very much, then you tell me, and I won't ask them. It turns out, almost half a year without your daughter. How do you reflect, what is it like – to lose for half a year the most beloved being, your daughter, and be in Russian captivity? How do you process all this now?

ВО: On one hand, of course it was hard to part, but on the other hand – this was the best thing I could do with my daughter at that moment. I just can't imagine if they had taken her to an orphanage – that would have been much worse. So I think I acted correctly in this situation, that I wrote the power of attorney and allowed a stranger to take her out, at least try. Now everything is good and I know, just a little more and we'll meet, and I won't let her go anywhere anymore. This is our longest separation of all time.

КА: What are your immediate plans? When you see your daughter, what would you want to do with her, where to go first of all, as soon as you see her?

ВО: I think that when we meet, we'll go somewhere to a restaurant, to a café, we'll constantly go to children's rooms, have fun, sit in parks, constantly play. Now we'll be together, together and only together.

КА: God willing, may this happen soon. Did you think about later, in the future, telling her what really happened?

ВО: I think that when she learns all this news, the internet is open for everyone, so she'll find out herself. Of course, this will remain in her memory. Because even now she remembers the bunker, how scary it was there, how we were separated. Of course, she remembers all this.

КА: When you in Mangush, completely said goodbye, what did you tell her, and how did she behave? When it's all over, they're taking you.

ВО: I gave her to the bus into the girl's hands, I say: "I love you very much, soon we'll meet, don't be afraid of anything, nobody will hurt you, everything will be fine." And that's all, I sent her an air kiss, because they were already starting to drag me away. And that's all, I just got in the car and left. And Alisa stayed with the girl.

КА: And Alisa? Did she cry?

ВО: No, everything was fine. And I tried not to cry so as not to scare her. I started crying already in the car, when she couldn't see me anymore.

КА: Did you have thoughts at that moment that you might not see her at all anymore?

ВО: There were such thoughts, because I didn't know where they were taking me, what they would do, what would happen. There were different thoughts.

КА: Can you try to remember, if this doesn't traumatize you too much, which ones? It's very important to understand what you felt at that moment.

ВО: I wasn't so much worried about Alisa as I understood that it was unknown what would happen with me next. I thought that this was our last meeting and it was unknown what would happen next. I understood that now there would be interrogations, that now they would beat me, they might break something. But, thank God, everything worked out without fractures. A few bruises, but thank you that without fractures.

КА: I wanted to ask you a question going far back. How did you decide to become a military medic at all?

ВО: I dreamed from childhood of wearing military uniform. But it didn't quite work out, I enrolled in medical college, worked as a nurse. And when I learned that you could sign a contract, I just combined two professions – so I'm in medicine, and also get to wear uniform. It turned out military medic.

КА: So this was recent?

ВО: June 1, 2021 I signed the contract.

КА: But you worked in a hospital?

ВО: I went through training in Mykolaiv and came to serve in the hospital.

КА: So you're not from Mariupol?

ВО: From Volnovakha district of Donetsk Oblast.

КА: How long ago did you move?

ВО: In 2014. I rented an apartment and started living in Mariupol, working there.

КА: Did you move with your whole family?

ВО: No, only me. Mom lived in Volnovakha district, and then got married and lived in Pokrovsk.

КА: And then they went to Poland?

ВО: Yes, then they went to Poland.

КА: Now being in freedom, undergoing rehabilitation, is there anything else you would want to tell about captivity, about the full-scale war, about Olenivka, about separation from your daughter, that I didn't ask you about?

ВО: I think no. I think you asked everything.