No matter where a woman is, she always stays a woman on the inside

КА: Katya Alexander

ТВ: Tatyana Vasylchenko

КА: I want to talk with you about your story: how you became a combat paramedic, how it all started and, of course, about captivity. What happened there, what you saw, what you had to endure. In general, I want to tell your story.

ТВ: Good, let's begin.

КА: I read several materials about you, you retired and at that moment decided to retrain as a military paramedic. Can you tell me how you made this decision, how it all started for you?

ТВ: When a person understands that they can already afford to do what they want, there are some means to live on, and at the same time there is an opportunity to change something. You know, we work our whole lives for children, not always a beloved job, not always we manage to do what we want. I just saw information on Facebook about a group being recruited for tactical medicine training, it's the Hospitallers battalion, which conducts exactly such training. My mother passed away early, but she always somehow dreamed that I would be a medic, this somehow pushed me. I was always interested in medicine within the framework of self-help and information in general. Without thinking, I immediately wrote an application to undergo exactly this training. Already on site I encountered, as they say, such a big family: you, a person they see for the first time, they simply accept as you are, share their knowledge, experience, all in an accessible form. I was simply charmed by all this. And plus the information, I understood that in civilian life it's not unnecessary either – it's always to help before doctors arrive – help yourself, loved ones, even just passersby on the street.

КА: What year was this?

ТВ: This was last year, in May. After completing these classes, I passed exams, received a certificate. There was such an offer: whoever wants can submit their data, an application to join the Hospitallers battalion. Well, I submitted one. It was really a soulful impulse, but I perfectly understood that they are there, I understand that this help is necessary for our troops, our guys. There weren't always enough, especially a year ago, combat medics at positions. Medics seem to exist, but the frontline is stretched out, he or she, they are not able to constantly control these couple of kilometers. Representatives of the Hospitallers battalion were always present at certain positions, 1-2-3 people, exactly from this volunteer battalion, paramedics who helped our troops to provide medical aid.

КА: Last year you joined the battalion. Did you manage during this time, before the start of the full-scale war, to go somewhere with them?

ТВ: It turned out that in May I completed training, I devoted the summer to my granddaughter, vacation. I understood that my daughter was at work, and I had a wonderful opportunity to both rest myself and be with the child. And when in September the child went to school, I immediately coordinated with the battalion chief of staff and already in the second half of October went out to a position with a group.

КА: What city were you living in at that time?

ТВ: I actually live in the city of Khmelnytskyi. The battalion base is in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, from there you get to the base, they already transport you to points according to their plans, who should stand where and for how long.

КА: Where was your first trip? Surely border zones with ORDLO? [editor's note: ORDLO is the Ukrainian abbreviation for "Separate Districts of Luhansk and Donetsk Oblasts"]

ТВ: Actually it was the very line of demarcation, sorry, I don't immediately remember Russian words. It was Vodyane village, Mariupol district. The frontline passed there, where we stood to help the army of Ukraine. Having stayed there 2 weeks, I returned for some time to my native city. You know, I had such impressions from our army, our guys from the battalion... I simply returned back there after a month.

КА: Because it was the same thing? What you wanted to find?

ТВ: Yes, the same Vodyane village. Essentially, I wasn't at other points anymore, I could come home a little and return again, I returned exactly there. Until the full-scale [war] we stood in Vodyane, I met that moment there when all this began.

КА: And before the start of the full-scale war, how many wounded were there? How much was your help constantly needed?

ТВ: At that time, exactly in that sector where I was located, fortunately, there weren't. The combat actions themselves were taking place, but they weren't so much, these weren't battles where there were wounded. I didn't even have such experience at the moment of full-scale. Everything began from the end of February of this year already. And wounded, and first practical work. Moreover, the situation was already not so calm as even in January.

КА: And so February 24, the beginning of the full-scale war, you're at this point. What happens next? What happens with you, what happens around?

ТВ: The thing is that at some moment we didn't have special access to information from the general staff or some orders. But we were informed that 4 days after the beginning of full-scale our troops retreat to the city. Naturally, we retreated together with them and were at the position. We were initially with a certain army subdivision, we were with it all this time. Up to the point that when direct combat actions began, we obeyed the orders of the commander of this subdivision. We perfectly understood that these are military [personnel], they understand the situation better, they possess information. We placed ourselves at their complete disposal.

КА: You were retreating toward Mariupol, it turns out?

ТВ: Yes. Mariupol was encircled. We didn't always have information, but there wasn't really time to sit and look at some posts that could give some information about what exactly was happening. We knew that Kyiv was also being attacked, and in general along many borders: southern border, northern border of our state. A full-scale offensive began everywhere. We were in that place and did what was necessary at that moment to defend Mariupol.

КА: Were you acting as a paramedic? Were you engaged in rescue?

ТВ: Of course. We were exactly as combat medics. Unfortunately, at that moment wounded and killed started coming in. There were many evacuations. Initially these were isolated cases, it was shocking. But, unfortunately, the further it went, the more there was exactly this medical work. And we simply no longer paid attention to emotions, we simply performed our work.

КА: During the time that you managed before the start of full-scale war to work in the battalion, such combat experience, exactly as a paramedic...

ТВ: There was little. Before all this it was at positions – we taught soldiers how to properly apply a tourniquet, how to provide help to yourself and your friend, brother-in-arms. While a paramedic manages to reach you, so that you succeed, so that there wouldn't be a critical situation. We had machines for evacuation, but all this was worked out in a training plan. At the moment of full-scale all this surfaced in the head, and you simply [act] according to protocol. There is a tactical medicine protocol, it's small, but there are clear steps there. Clearly following it saved very many lives.

КА: After the start of full-scale war what did you have to do for the first time as a paramedic? What medical manipulations did you have to master literally in the field?

ТВ: Fortunately, mostly the wounded I got were conscious, they talked. I never had to restore their breathing. Applying a tourniquet, naturally, it's one thing when you do it in training, on yourself or on someone – you don't see a concrete wound. But here there was everything: blood, dirt, explosions nearby. Exactly in such a situation you simply don't look around, don't flinch. You simply do it, all these movements should be brought to automatism. At some moment I understood that I abstracted myself and looked at all this from the side. To give in to some panic, fear... The very first provision of medical aid, I placed a catheter in the wounded person on the second try, because my hands were really shaking. Then I exhaled and understood what needed to be done. A person had been under rubble for many hours, the skin was already gray, veins were practically not palpable. I didn't expect from myself that I would connect the wounded person to the system on the second try. I congratulated [myself] on such endurance, skills and understood that I can do it, so I will do this.

КА: From this moment you had like...

ТВ: Yes, it was a turning point – the first evacuation after an airstrike, we dug out a living person. He didn't have open wounds, there was crush syndrome, pelvic bones were damaged, dehydration, poor lung ventilation. But at the same time he was still conscious, we talked. He was delivered to the hospital in Mariupol in stable condition. Many cases when there were already torn wounds, and partial or complete amputation. I can't even list everything now, I don't know, I need to somehow sit down and remember the whole chronology, because I have consequences after a concussion. There are moments when something is simply blocked in memory. We did what we did under any circumstances, at some moment you don't even think. Somewhere this subconscious fear exists, but exactly at the moment itself you don't even not pay attention, but... I can't convey it in words. Fear exists, because a normal person cannot not experience fear. But nevertheless, it was an irrational view of all this. The first time you see when a mine explodes near you, or a tank works... At some moment this was still not an awareness of this danger, that's all.

КА: The case with the catheter, when you succeeded on the second try, when was this approximately?

ТВ: This was February 28, there were still the first airstrikes.

КА: So you're in Mariupol, you see the encirclement, shelling, thousands of wounded. How did you end up at the Azovstal plant itself, you were taken captive there?

ТВ: Yes. We went into captivity from Azovstal. From March 1 we were in Mariupol. Periodically positions changed, the ring tightened, moments went that we retreated. First there was the suburb, then there was the Illich Steel and Iron Works. We were exactly with the combat unit that performed the combat task. We were at positions. When the moment came, the necessity to decide something, we understood that from outside we no longer had the possibility to wait for some help, it was impossible to leave the city. A decision was made to move to Azovstal, where Azov Brigade subdivisions held the defense. And they still had ammunition, which couldn't be said about us.

КА: Ammunition, this is?..

ТВ: Ammunition, munitions.

КА: When did you move to Azovstal?

ТВ: Exactly our subdivision, we got to Azovstal, this was around April 13-14.

КА: You get to Azovstal, what happens there? What did you see before you?

ТВ: We arrived there in the second half of the day, somewhere like that. We immediately went down to the underground room. These could be both bunkers, which according to plan are located at any enterprise, like bomb shelters, as well as the plant's own premises, because there are many underground communications there, there were large rooms of different purposes. Initially there were many bunkers, as we called them, throughout the plant. I was at one where we immediately equipped a medical point, practically immediately began providing medical aid, because there were many wounded there, there were secondary wounds, those which had already been received several days before our arrival. Also in the first days there was a lot of primary wound treatment. On one hand, fortunately, there was a hospital in one bunker where there were qualified doctors, and something already light, shrapnel, even bullet wounds that didn't threaten life – the guys remained in the bunker with us. Simply bandages, treatments and other aid manipulations were done.

КА: And at Azovstal at that time were there many wounded?

ТВ: I can't give you the full picture, because there are many bunkers. I can only speak for our bunker. Simply our bunker, as far as I now know, is one of the largest, accordingly there were around a hundred wounded. I didn't count, I can't say exactly, but the number was large. And moreover, wounded were still coming in. Those same guys who went out on duty, to the surface, could come as a group in which there could already be a wounded fighter.

КА: How was it at Azovstal in general? Were medications, ammunition running out there? You arrived just at that moment, as far as I understand, before complete cutoff of provisions.

ТВ: Yes. A second ring formed there, we were at Azovstal already in a double ring. Mariupol itself encircled, and already Azovstal was surrounded. This is a large plant, I don't know how many square meters it occupies, but quite a large territory. You couldn't really go out to the city anymore, there was no possibility. You know what saved us? These first aid kits that are always equipped in workshops. In these first aid kits there were bandage packets, disinfecting agents, even syringes, tablets were found. Tablets that were expired, but they were located in a dark place at stable temperature, I understood that I had nothing else. I used these medications, and they helped.

КА: Was it already quite difficult in terms of medications?

ТВ: Yes. Fortunately, at our bunker there was both an Azov fighters' medical point and exactly our army brigade point. They also had supplies, we shared among ourselves, we consulted, always everything together, supported each other. Honestly, I don't know if I had found myself somewhere alone in a bunker as a medic... To cope with such a quantity, and such knowledge, unfortunately, I don't have as a doctor to be able in some situations to adequately help. Therefore I'm grateful to all the medics, both of the Ukrainian army and Azov fighters in particular, who provided informational help to me. After all this, I so replenished my baggage of knowledge that I... You know, I always had a subconscious fear that I wasn't smart enough and possessed knowledge to provide the most qualified help that was necessary at the given moment, and this could cost someone their life. Such fear existed. Now I can thank those who were next to me, who showed and told me everything. This enriched my knowledge, and in the future I will be able to more confidently provide any medical aid.

КА: Being at Azovstal, seeing everything happening – wounded, shelling, how did you emotionally endure everything? It's clear that you had combat experience, but it was different.

ТВ: On one hand, when you're in a bunker, you still understand that you're somewhat protected. Only a direct hit from an airstrike carried a real potential threat. When we heard Grads or mortar shelling, no one in the bunker paid attention to this anymore. The most threatening thing was airstrikes. Especially when they started using three-ton aerial bombs – these are high-explosive aerial bombs equivalent to a ton of TNT charge. There was naval artillery when a cruiser stood in the Azov Sea waters, and strikes came from the sea. This is quite a large caliber, and this really was a real threat that, unfortunately, reached targets. There were both killed and wounded.

Already at such small stuff we didn't even psychologically react much.

КА: You're at Azovstal from mid-April. What happened directly before captivity? What was the situation, what was happening in your bunker? Can you try to remember?

ТВ: The situation was such: we understood that time was passing, our ammunition was running out, we had problems with food, with drinking water. There was some connection, some wifi, to learn some news. We hoped to the last for a breakthrough, for some help from outside. At the same time we understood that a double ring is a double ring. To those who managed to negotiate exactly about surrender, I'm grateful. Because this captivity is not shame, it's saving the lives of a large number of people, our leaders saved around 3 thousand lives. This is not the best place to stay, but we didn't lose the most important thing during all this time, we preserved our lives. Going into captivity is not the end. Awareness there, in captivity, gave strength that sooner or later an exchange would happen, sooner or later the situation on the frontline would change. Returning home – this question wasn't on my mind. I only understood that this is a process, some time is necessary to resolve the issue. The most important thing that the leaders of both Azovstal and the 36th Marine Brigade were able to do, who participated in these negotiations, exactly about surrender, they saved lives and this is the main, most valuable thing.

КА: How did the capture process go, what happened at this moment? Did you receive an order from somewhere or how did this happen?

ТВ: I don't know what happened exactly in the upper echelons of leadership. On the ground, information was conveyed, this happened on May 16, in the morning. A silence regime was announced so that we could leave the plant. The Russians called this "surrender to allied forces," that this was an operation to surrender to allied forces for exchange. Naturally, such a number of people couldn't go out at once and [be] transferred to places where they held prisoners of war. Therefore this happened from May 16 to 20. I was with a group that went out on May 18. On May 19 we were already at a colony on "Donetsk People's Republic" territory, this is Olenivka, a settlement near Donetsk. The colony had once been mothballed, they opened it and prisoners of war were held there.

КА: The process itself, how did you go out? What did the Russians say? What was happening?

ТВ: At that moment there were representatives of the Russian army there. Only standard questions were asked: who are you, what are you, where from, what unit, rank. Well and checking personal things for sharp and cutting objects, to secure our transportation. Everything standard was surrendered when leaving the plant, people stood there, a truck into which everything was put, the number of an automatic rifle was recorded, for example. I don't know exactly, because our battalion is demilitarized, we didn't have weapons with us. Therefore surrender went simply directly. They checked things, seated us in buses and took us to the settlement where prisoners of war were held.

КА: When they brought you, did you have interrogations? What happened when you got to Olenivka?

ТВ: A couple of days nothing. I don't remember exactly, on the 20th or 21st representatives from the Russian side, FSB, conducted interrogations. Initially this was quite a correct conversation, where they simply established identity. All questions: where were you at the moment of the start of full-scale, how did you end up at Azovstal, how did you leave, what did you do there? Such standard questions that you simply answered, and they wrote it down for themselves. This was at the beginning. Then months passed, we understood that all this time we had simply an information vacuum. We didn't know what was happening in the world, in our country in particular, what the situation was on the frontline. By the way, FSB is FSB, but the guard itself was Donetsk People's Republic executive service, which usually is in prisons. They, of course, were lovers to somehow touch, humiliate. To tell that just a little more and up to Dnipro [will be] Russian territory already, all that. In order to influence exactly morally.

КА: Did they often tell you such things?

ТВ: Practically constantly. There were isolated representatives of "Donetsk People's Republic" who simply came to work. They didn't enter into polemics, could sometimes ask something, but there weren't such obvious aggressive manifestations. I'm saying, these are isolated cases. Mainly it was disdainful treatment. They generally didn't understand how to behave with prisoners of war. They not only didn't read, they hadn't heard about the Geneva Convention. Accordingly, the treatment was such.

КА: Did they tell this to everyone? Like they say, soon Dnipro will be ours, conditionally. Did they approach each person? Maybe they said something to you personally?

ТВ: The thing is that so many people are taken for interrogation. To no one specifically [this wasn't said, but it was] voiced so that many heard. This is not a conversation with someone personally, this was a general attitude.

КА: Did these interrogations happen often?

ТВ: Depends with whom.

КА: With you?

ТВ: Since I'm a civilian and not a combatant, I didn't have weapons in my hands, I'm a paramedic. They established, received certain information, and at some moment I didn't have further conversations with them. There was also later the prosecutor's office of the Russian Federation, which, note, opened a criminal case about crimes against the peaceful population of the city of Mariupol. I asked: "Interesting, and why are you opening this case, Russia? Whatever crimes there might have been, this is Ukraine's internal affair. Mariupol is a Ukrainian city. By jurisdiction what are you doing here? You already captured it, let's start with the fact that law doesn't have retroactive effect. What was before the moment of your capture, this is Ukraine's internal affair." They shut my mouth and said: "Answer the questions."

КА: And they didn't beat you for this?

ТВ: No. To women, however it may be, I can state, at least at Olenivka, that neither beatings nor any tortures were applied.

КА: They didn't touch you physically?

ТВ: Yes, physically yes. But otherwise there were different nuances.

КА: Moral humiliations?

ТВ: Both humiliations, and insults, and disdainful treatment. Everything to suppress will, everything to show that we are nothing. This is quite difficult in general, and there were young girls whom they psychologically... Especially when they tell, a month passed, two: "Ukraine doesn't want you. Ukraine isn't going to exchange you, because your country, you're not needed by it at all. Take it, write a statement that you don't want to be exchanged. You'll get a Russian passport." I say: "And why do I need it? Why do I need your Russian passport if there will be an exchange – I asserted this as fact – this is first. And second, I have a daughter, I have a granddaughter, father, sister, and in general this is my home. Ukraine is my home."

КА: When you talked with them in such a way, quite harshly, did they answer you or try to somehow...

ТВ: From the Russian prosecutor's office I got an investigator, a quite young guy, who simply said: "I'm talking to you nicely, answer the questions." Then I simply started answering questions, no more: "Yes, yes, no, didn't see, don't know, wasn't present, didn't come across" – everything. They gave me to read the interrogation protocol where I passed as a witness. After this the prosecutor's office didn't work with me personally anymore.

КА: You mentioned that they didn't touch you physically, but morally tried to somehow humiliate, suppress. Can you tell about this in more detail? How did Russian military try to break, primarily through your experience? How did this happen with you?

ТВ: We periodically had interrogations, somehow in the evening they led to headquarters, they took fingerprints. They, by the way, took DNA samples, and all this was entered into their database. You go in, give surname, name, subdivision. Their eyes constantly popped out that I'm a civilian, paramedic, volunteer from a demilitarized battalion that was on the frontline. Mainly representatives of the Russian Federation did this, their various services. At that moment in headquarters there was a Donetsk People's Republic guy, our Ukrainian in quotes. He tells me: "Ah, Hospitallers, Right Sector?" And all this started, there was obscene language: "You twisted faggots! You know how many children you killed?" I say: "I killed? With what?" – "Because you saved a fighter's life, and he killed children. And this is on your conscience." I say: "Who's to blame that you put children in trenches? War is not hiding behind children." If not for the Russian officers, he would have used physical force.

КА: So they somehow restrained him?

ТВ: Yes. He was, first of all, completely drunk. He was in that room in headquarters then, heard that I was from Hospitallers, started this with me. They finished with me quickly and said: "That's it, get out of here, so you won't be [here]." This was exactly a Donetsk People's Republic guy, exactly one who wanted the Russian world.

КА: Those who were from "Donetsk People's Republic," were they more aggressive than those who were from Russia?

ТВ: Yes. Russia, whatever it does, it never does it with its own hands. Men in Olenivka were in barracks, in general conditions, and women were held separately in cells in solitary confinement. This is a disciplinary isolator, separate cells. Russians didn't use physical force even on men, they simply brought them to the second floor, where Donetsk People's Republic guards abused them.

КА: And did you hear this?

ТВ: We heard this. We didn't see, but it was enough for us what we heard. It was horrible.

КА: And what did you hear?

ТВ: Both sounds of beatings and guys' screams. Then you know what they started doing? Simply taping mouths with duct tape. When we only heard the sound of duct tape, we already understood that there would be a "fun" night or evening. This could continue for hours. There was psychological pressure, because they knew that we heard this, we women. And Russia didn't dirty its hands. They did nothing, they didn't use force, they have nothing to do with it.

КА: Do I understand correctly that because you sat with men, for example, with those same Azov fighters, on different floors, you didn't see each other at all?

ТВ: No, absolutely not. We could see on walks, which happened quite infrequently. They took us out to a courtyard, this is also a cage, simply access to a bit more fresh air. On three sides it's brick, and on one side there are bars and a door. If two cells were taken out simultaneously, then we could simply see and talk. And even then, if adequate Donetsk People's Republic guys were on shift who simply turned a blind eye to this.

КА: And what did you talk about, if you managed to, on walks?

ТВ: How do you feel, how are you holding up? We tried to support each other. You see that eyes have gone out, we started saying that everything will be normal, we'll get out of here. Mainly we tried to support each other. Or when they ask you: "Well, how are things?" – "Everything's wonderful, everything's good. We're living, simply waiting for the moment when we return." This was care for each other, about health condition, about psychological state and mutual support.

КА: Can you tell in more detail about the conditions of detention?

ТВ: Detention conditions in Olenivka were far from the Geneva Convention. Exactly women were held at this solitary confinement, where in a 6-person cell there could be 27 women. We slept on the floor, mattresses and pillows were given only at the end of August. Whoever had them, you simply throw [them] on this concrete floor, they could throw a couple of blankets into the cell or something else. Someone had a sleeping bag with them or something else, this way we got out of the situation. Hygiene products were very rare. You understand yourselves, women. Not often [hygiene products were given out], everyone economized, everything was divided. Let's say they threw something into our cell, a piece of soap or a pack of pads, or the same shampoo – we immediately divided by the number of women in the cell.

КА: And from the point of view of feminine hygiene, did they give you anything very rarely? How did you cope?

ТВ: I'll say frankly, cyclicity stopped. This is connected with weight loss. Only a few needed special hygiene products. The main mass at that moment no longer needed this. Amenorrhea always occurs during highly stressful situations and with sharp weight loss.

КА: So you were also fed poorly?

ТВ: I can't say this was enough, but there was 3-meal feeding. These were grains, porridge, some water with cabbage. It was hard to die, but it not only didn't smell of full nutrition, it was somewhere far away. Purely so you wouldn't die of hunger – maintaining vital activity, no more.

КА: How was it with medical aid? Did at least someone try to examine, treat anyone?

ТВ: Practically not at all. We received medical aid... These are doctors from the military hospital of the city of Mariupol, who later were at Azovstal and also went into captivity. There were doctors who were sometimes allowed if complaints came from women's cells or even men's barracks. If they had something, some no-spa, analgin, some medications. There were practically no medication deliveries, but they submitted something by application to Donetsk, I don't know this mechanism exactly, but sometimes something reached us.

КА: In a state of complete isolation, in a state of super stress, you also had no connection with families at all?

ТВ: Yes, practically none. The first several months there was a curator for women. He dealt with the female contingent of prisoners of war. He himself is Chechen, call sign Timur. He even brought us something from volunteers, could bring a pack of cigarettes to the cell, a wafer, candy, a couple times a month something would flash. A moment came, I managed to talk with my daughter on June 8. He gave a phone. Initially he said: "You can call relatives, but this will be recorded on camera." We refused. After a couple of days he came, says: "Does someone want to call?" we: "Only without video messages." He: "Yes, you can call like that." Naturally, I understood that the conversation was being recorded. Some naive girls thought: "Since they won't record on video..." I say: "So your conversation will be recorded anyway, big deal." Initially he said: "You understand, so that Ukraine wants to return you to itself, you should tell this to relatives, so they appeal, so they do something. Maybe someone has connections with higher management bodies, so they appeal." We laughed. Someone's mother is under 60 years old, who does she know, who will she appeal to? I'm in captivity, in captivity. At that moment I simply used this situation and managed to call my daughter.

КА: Was this the first time?

ТВ: This was the first and only time that I talked with her from captivity.

КА: How did this go?

ТВ: My girl is a smarty. She already knew. I immediately called: "This is mom. Don't cry, listen carefully. Did the Red Cross call?" – "They called." "Do you know I'm in captivity?" – "I know." "What's the situation? Your health, is everything normal?" First, I wanted to convey information to my battalion, so they would know that with my group practically everything is normal. There were wounds, everyone is in satisfactory health condition. Only, we had one person from the group die, I immediately said this information: "Call, report. I'm unlikely to be able to contact my battalion." A conversation went on, I understood that it was being recorded. No more offers, even if I said I want to call, came to me. They understood that I didn't scream that I'm in captivity, free me. I simply gave information and instructions about what needed to be done. But I heard my daughter's voice. All I told her: "Do you believe me?" she tells me: "I believe," – "Well believe, I'll return." After this she had no connection for long months, nothing. It was hard for me. I believed, knew that my girl wouldn't break. She had to feel that I'm alive and I'll return. When I called at the moment when we were exchanged and before Zaporizhzhia... We have a national information bureau that gave us help. This is both phones, and starter packages, and food, clothes – everything. They completely provided for us from the moment of our liberation. When phones were distributed, I dialed. My child... Exclamations of joy and tears, and everything. She says: "I knew, I knew you would be exchanged!" I say: "Of course! And I didn't know! What happiness that you knew I was going home. And I was going, and I didn't even know where I was going."

КА: About the exchange a little later. I want to learn in more detail about the Chechen with call sign Timur. Who is he? How did you understand that he's the women's curator? What did he actually do?

ТВ: A couple times a week he looked into the cell. Asked how we feel, how our affairs are, maybe something is needed. At that time, while he was there, toilet paper appeared in our cell. I understand that the Red Cross was still transferring some volunteers, but it's not a fact that it reached us. I think no one let the Red Cross in, because if they had seen this horror in +30 heat, 27 women in a cell, water of questionable quality. We had problems with stomach, there were disorders. We understood that they wouldn't let the Red Cross see this. They simply took volunteers from them, but not everything always reached [us]. And the Chechen could separately talk with someone, took them to a separate office. I never had such a personal conversation with him, but girls told that he simply chatted. The impression of him was that he's educated, FSB guy, clearly has psychology education. Smart, tactful, there were never any humiliations, insults, nothing at all from him. He behaved quite correctly. I understand that he had a certain task set by his leadership, maybe to incline someone to cooperation, but I didn't fall into this category of personal communication. I understand that my conversation with my daughter was enough for him [to understand] that I won't go for any compromises. КА: You don't know what's happening beyond Olenivka when you're in complete isolation, you hear how they torture your guys. Did you try to occupy yourselves to fill that empty time?

ТВ: You won't believe it, we had books, they brought us books.

КА: And what kind of books were these?

ТВ: It was some kind of library, there were stamps on the books like in a library, inventory numbers. Someone read, we talked. Especially if the topic of children, grandchildren came up. These were such sadomasochistic conversations, when you want to eat, we would definitely talk about who cooked what, when. And we wrote down little recipes. From our manner of behavior in such a situation... It was even shocking at some point.

КА: Do you remember any recipe that you wrote down?

ТВ: By the time I was released from captivity I had no personal belongings, a lot was lost, including documents. Although a week before my release from captivity I saw my own documents in the hands of an FSB agent. And some little cakes, and little rolls - a lot of everything. This definitely had to be something original, tasty. If I try hard, I can remember, because I have visual memory. If I was writing, I can remember it. But unfortunately, the consequences of my concussion sometimes block whole chunks.

КА: You've mentioned concussion several times, how did you get it? Was this in captivity or before?

ТВ: This was before. It was the last day of March, March 31st, we were evacuating the guys from the anti-aircraft installation "Raschet," which came under tank shelling. First a vehicle full of ammunition exploded, where a tank shell hit. And then, when we were pulling back, we came into direct line of sight of the tank and this was tank shelling. Nothing special happened, the blast wave threw me back. This is acoustic barotrauma, closed traumatic brain injury, concussion and contusion.

КА: Here I understood you. Let's return to the little recipes, what else did you occupy yourselves with? What did you talk about among yourselves?

ТВ: The girls could talk about anything. A woman remains a woman in any situation. Especially when there are many of them... Oh, that's a terrible force! It happened to me that I could lie practically the whole day, I didn't sleep. I would close my eyes, return mentally to those places where I felt calm, good. By the way, about my brothers-in-arms, about my daughter, about children I tried not to think, because this drove me into depression. I just blocked this. I really love our Carpathian mountains. I remembered days when I could walk through the forest. Before my eyes were those places where I felt good. This had a beneficial effect on my psyche, moral state, gave strength to endure all this further.

КА: These thoughts about a place where you felt good and safe?

ТВ: Yes, this gave energetic nourishment. You understand, I'm already a woman of a certain age. There was a moment in conversation with an FSB agent when he was telling me: "Here's your Ukraine, what did your government give you?" I say: "And why should the government give something? It gave me freedom of choice, this is first of all, our democracy. I get my education when I want. At 50 I practically changed my profession, I do what I want, I have freedom of choice." And he says to me: "And you have such a government!...", I say: "You know, let's do it this way, I won't speak for the government. It can be changed, but you can never change your homeland."

КА: Did they react normally to this? Didn't beat you, didn't humiliate you?

ТВ: No. This answer was shortly before the exchange, conversations with FSB agents. This answer made him understand that neither recruitment, nor blackmail with my children, nor anything else, would bring him any result.

КА: And did they somehow try to blackmail you with your children?

ТВ: Yes. First there were questions: "What can your daughter do to save mama? What is mama ready to do to save her child's life?" They miscalculated a bit in that between interrogations they gave a couple of days. During these couple of days you comprehend and understand that my daughter is safe, that she will never commit treason against the homeland. Whatever happens, I can be calm. They like: "Will you smoke?" - "I will." He extends a cigarette, and you take it, he looks at your hands - is there tremor, how are you behaving. Having realized all this, I sat calmly. "Let's return to the question about your daughter?" I say: "No," he: "Yes," I say: "No," and we, looking each other in the eyes, argued for about 30 seconds.

КА: Weren't you afraid?

ТВ: I was no longer afraid. I let it go.

КА: Until what moment were you afraid and when did this pass?

ТВ: I was afraid at the moment when there was the first interrogation. I [then had] real fear for my children, for everything. When I came to the place, I sat, I analyzed. First this was a light psychosis, and then, having arranged everything on shelves, I understood: my child is far away, try to reach her, you won't even cross the frontline. If you think logically, don't give in to emotions, then you calm down, let go of the situation and can calmly continue to communicate further. He sees your psychological calm. In the end, finally I was told: "Good, this question is closed." I say: "Excellent, I'm satisfied." Which of course... Such an angry look. He's dissatisfied, his leadership will be dissatisfied, because the task wasn't completed. But he tried.

КА: What was the task?

ТВ: Some kind of recruitment. We have quite a lot in Ukraine of so-called agents of influence. A person was once in captivity or somehow he gets out... And until a certain moment he just lives for himself, and then out of the blue he receives a task, mainly informational. Now it's a full-scale war, but all that time it was an informational war. These people carried out such tasks. This was undermining from within.

КА: So they tried to recruit you?

ТВ: Yes. What my task would consist of, we didn't get to that, because I didn't say "yes."

КА: When you realized that nothing threatened your daughter and nothing threatened her child, after that did it become easier to communicate with them?

ТВ: Yes-yes. I let go of the situation. I was calm, like an elephant in a meadow who doesn't think about anything. But this cost effort. I'm telling you: their mistake was to give time between interrogations, whole 2 days. During these 2 days I had enough willpower to tune myself normally. I understood that there would be a continuation of the conversation. At some point I was already running through dialogues: how should I behave, how should I say it. Self-tuning means a lot, because women are easily caught on emotions, on maternal feelings and this can be manipulated.

КА: So, by giving you 2 days, you were able to calm yourself?

ТВ: Yes. If this had continued like in movies: talked during the day, at night out of the blue they dragged you, then it would have been hard to cope morally.

КА: Very good that they gave you so much time. A good situation for you.

ТВ: Yes. When you understand with your brain that you won't do anything, but there's still a moment of fear, you can't suppress it. The nervous system reacts in its own way. The brain says: "This won't happen," but you can't believe your own brain. And when there's time, it means you can calmly think and come to the conclusion that you won't do anything. And [you need to] convince yourself so much that you can behave naturally normally further. And they see that there's no psychological reaction and there's no point in achieving anything. They understood that at that moment, this was a couple of weeks before our exchange, that an intensive process of prisoner exchange was going on. I understand that they were limited in time frames. They were working for their salary.

КА: You also said the phrase that in any situation a woman remains a woman. How did this manifest in captivity?

ТВ: First of all, some girls even had cosmetics: either lipstick, or a pencil got lost somewhere. Even tweezers and a mirror went around the cell, "let me also tidy myself up." This stimulated, when a woman stops taking care of herself, degradation begins, this held us back. We remained morally resilient. I remember, this little window in the door opened, one of the Muscovites [editor's note: derogatory term for Russians] approached, didn't really look in, but a voice: "Good afternoon, is everything okay with you? What do you need?" And immediately a bunch of female exclamations. I say: "Girls, quiet, shh! His question was just pro forma - to look in, ask what's happening here." So many women, this immediately... We need toilet paper, we need this, there's no shampoo, there's none of that. Doesn't matter where a woman is located. She will always remain like that inside, we need everything. We can do everything, just give us a little bit of shampoo.

КА: How did you personally try to keep yourself in order in such conditions?

ТВ: We had girls who did colossal hairstyles, braiding such masterpieces with braids! We all walked around there with such hairstyles that, I remember, even an FSB agent asked me: "Oh, you have a different hairstyle today?" They themselves were shocked that we maintained our appearance, we didn't fall morally and physically.

КА: How else did you manage to maintain your appearance?

ТВ: Definitely brush your teeth, wash your face, whatever kind of water it was. Even rinse clothes, elementary hygienic procedures in any conditions, even if it's a plastic bottle of water for so many people, then there will be a mug each. Shower - this was extraordinary, extreme. In the shower room, where there are 2 faucets, two showers, 8-10 people are let in and they give you 10 minutes. In these 10 minutes, you can't imagine what a woman can do. She'll wash her hair, rinse herself, still manage to wash her underwear.

КА: Was this cold water too?

ТВ: Room temperature water, by the way, fortunately, because we wanted to cool down. When it was already cooler, well such, I won't say hot, but at least warm.

КА: You didn't wash in ice-cold water?

ТВ: No. This was already the extreme point in Taganrog, when they were processing us for the last 2 nights before the exchange. They brought us all to one point - to Taganrog to a pre-trial detention center. From where they then transferred 108 women for exchange, everyone was scattered who knows where. Yes there, there stupidly ice-cold water was flowing. At least you took some with your palm, splashed something on yourself and that's it.

КА: This is a very important episode about this war, how a woman in captivity remains a woman. Maybe you have more such details in your memory? What else did you try to do to preserve yourselves?

ТВ: We washed clothes. It turned out for me, after another shelling I left practically everything in the vehicle. What I had on, that's what I came out in. At the bunker the girls helped me: someone gave a blouse, someone a sweater, something else, a towel. Girls who fell into captivity, they had backpacks, even something civilian - there was some T-shirt, some leggings. So you washed, while it dries, we changed clothes. This distracted from where we were and didn't let our spirits fall. The main thing - these were our hairstyles. The girls' hair had grown out during all this time without hairdressers, we just created masterpieces. The girls made such hairstyles with all kinds of braids, just amazing!

КА: And how did you start doing these hairstyles? Do you remember how it began?

ТВ: I wouldn't even say. We had Lena Filippova, she has a creative approach, rich imagination. She'll look at hair length and start doing something. Either a braid will end, or braids will be gathered to the top point and then a ponytail. Maybe she suggested it to me herself, I don't remember exactly. A couple of days pass and we: "Lena, will you rebraid me tomorrow before lunch?" - "Yes, good." A queue, like you're calling your hairdresser: "When are you free? Put me down." This distracted us from where we were.

КА: Did you have a favorite hairstyle that Lena made for you?

ТВ: The mirror was small, I couldn't look from the side. There were no phones a priori, to photograph and look at this masterpiece. All the girls: "Turn this way, and in the back you have it like this, wow! This is something interesting."

КА: Ah! You kind of described it to each other?

ТВ: Yes.

КА: Wow! This is a very important episode, very touching. So you sat, it turns out, more than half a year in captivity...

ТВ: No, I got exactly 5 months. 4.5 months I was in Olenivka. Then they transferred us to Belgorod Oblast, there already the dispersal went in parts. They scattered us throughout the border zone of the Russian Federation, because initially we were in the "Donetsk People's Republic," and then they started throwing us to different colonies specifically of Russia. We don't know any reliable reason why exactly. We supposed that, first of all, it was already getting cold, the colony where we were - there's no heat, nothing. That colony, I understand, they were supposed to mothball, and people had to be put somewhere. We were all from "Azovstal" there, men were sent to Horlivka, to Donetsk pre-trial detention center, to Taganrog pre-trial detention center. From the women's side 9 women, myself included, were first sent to Belgorod Oblast to a camp for interned prisoners of war, which, by the way, met all requirements of the Geneva Convention. Such camps, as I understood, existed on Russian territory initially, throughout all military actions. This is a tent city, the inner perimeter is guarded by Russian military police, then there's an outer perimeter, this is already guarded by military. There's normal food, access to fresh air, medical care. That is, everything as the Geneva Convention writes. But we were there 13 days, then they transferred us to Kursk Oblast to some colony, a couple of nights. Then they transferred us to Taganrog, and after a day and a half we end up in Crimea, from where they already transported us by vehicles to the exchange site.

КА: When these movements started happening, did this begin in September?

ТВ: September 30th they took us to Belgorod. October 13th, a couple of days before the 17th, before the moment of exchange, they scattered us across several oblasts.

КА: When they started transporting you, did you have a feeling that any moment now they'd take you for exchange? What were you thinking in general?

ТВ: When we got to the camp for prisoners of war, there, where they gave us normal food, warm clothes, because the night was already cold, and these were tents, but there was a wood stove, insulation. There were beds with sheets and a blanket with a pillow! The girls sat in shock and said: "God, this is paradise compared to Olenivka." I say: "Girls, this is the final stretch. They're just tidying us up a bit, because for exchange." They: "This is all dreams," - "You'll see." Because nothing just happens. Some intuition told me that the exchange should still take place.

КА: So precisely because of the conditions you decided this was re-preparation?

ТВ: Yes. There was a medical examination - are there traces of beatings on us, how do we feel. The food was normal, human, where we saw stewed meat in porridge, you could eat fruit, an apple, candy, cookies. Tea with sugar! This already said something. During those 13 days we were there, our eyes, cheeks became rosy, it already didn't look so scary. Did I lose a lot of weight? I had 48 kilograms in life, plus or minus 2-3 kilograms. I understand that there was minus 8 at minimum. Size XS, multicam pants, they just don't unbutton, they just fell off. After this at the end, albeit small, but normal nutrition for 2 weeks, I want to tell you, works miracles. At least we already didn't look absolutely scary. Naturally, for recovery more time and balanced nutrition is needed, but this was already a step taken so that we would look more or less decent at the exchange.

КА: What happened next?

ТВ: We asked our guards questions, they said something. We: "When's the exchange?" a woman is a woman, she'll interrupt anyone and ask her question anyway. I said then: "Girls, he's from military police or even the camp commander. He's an ordinary colonel, I don't know from what branch of troops. They definitely don't convey this information to them." But we asked them, they said: "Sooner or later from this interned camp you'll be transferred to pre-trial detention center or colony, and from there exchanges are carried out." When they transferred us one fine day from Kursk to a colony, there were many women there. I don't know the exact number, but not 9 people. The food was normal, better than in Olenivka, but the attitude... A nuance. A female guard is much more cruel than a man.

КА: How did she treat you?

ТВ: This could be not only moral impact, but also physical. I can't say this was beating, but to shove in the shoulder, jerk, push against the wall, something like that. Can't fully beat, but some nastiness, at least something, but she'll do. Girls after release from such colonies said that yes, physical impact was applied. I can just say: "Girls, I understand it's humiliating, even painful physically, but even more painful morally. But what we heard in Olenivka, what real torture and beating is, this wasn't applied to women."

КА: Did all this happen in the Kursk colony, these female guards?

ТВ: Yes. Thank God, we spent 2 days in Kursk. I understand then a call came and there was a certain list, because not everyone was taken from Kursk then, but specifically by lists they started collecting from different colonies and bringing to Taganrog, to the point from where departure for exchange already went. On the 15th they collected us, took us to Taganrog. 15-16, on the night of the 17th early morning in Taganrog they opened the food slot to the cell and said: "Such and such," by surname, there were just 6 of us, with things to exit. The guard also doesn't know, they told him to take people from the list somewhere. Our girls also: "Is this for exchange? Is this that?" I say: "Girls, quiet." I asked him, it was 6 AM: "Is this wake-up?" He told me: "Not wake-up. That's it, girls, we're going." We all didn't believe until the end, nobody told us we were going for exchange. Even if someone said it out loud, we would tell him: "Quiet, shh, don't jinx it!" Until we hear our native language and Ukraine greets you, we won't believe. So many times they transferred us... This could just be the next colony.

КА: Did you go there from Kursk?

ТВ: This was specifically from Taganrog already. From Taganrog they collected by list, us, 108 women, transferred by plane to Crimea. At the airfield they loaded us into trucks and drove us by vehicle to the exchange point.

КА: When they were transporting you there, did you already understand you were almost home?

ТВ: We understood, but didn't say it out loud until the end, so that everything would go smoothly, so that nothing would happen, wouldn't change. We were already so afraid that something might go wrong. After all, we didn't know the situation at the frontline. When we were flying in the plane with bound hands and eyes, this is a transport plane, where they just seated us on the floor. 200 people were thrown into this transport. You're flying and you hear how above your head the guard who is afraid said: "I hope our own don't shoot us down." I think, Lord, I hope our own don't shoot us down! This is just trash. This moment, when they brought us to the point, we understood these conversations, any moment now, yes, exactly, road to Zaporizhzhia, we're already going. The vehicles stopped, the tarp covering opened. And indeed in our native language they told us to get out to this side, everyone line up. Initially the vehicles stopped, there was a certain transfer of documents, verification of lists, such organizational moments. Then, when the actual exchange process began, then... I can't convey these emotions to you, I just can't.

КА: What happiness that this finally happened! How did you first see your daughter?

ТВ: After the exchange they immediately took us to the hospital in Dnipro city, Dnipropetrovsk Oblast. Since I'm in the volunteer Ukrainian army, my battalion commander took care of taking me to Kyiv for examination. Before I got to Kyiv, I still came to Pavlohrad to the permanent deployment point of our battalion. I met with my friends, leadership, was there a couple of days. This was the end of the week, anyway sitting in Kyiv in a clinic, looking at the ceiling, because these are weekend days. I'd rather be with my family of brothers-in-arms. I went to Kyiv, on the 29th I got to Khmelnytskyi and saw my daughter. I was in touch with her by phone all this time. At some point this was a protective reaction of my psyche - I talked with her, especially when I was at my location in the battalion, I had such a feeling that I came from rotation and would soon return home, just need a couple of days to resolve organizational questions. I understand that my psyche practically blocked the past year. I'm going home from the battalion. Such moments that just flew out. What happened during this time, it's as if it didn't happen to me, I'm just stating a fact. Still need to go through therapy with a psychologist, because this can't be left. Sooner or later post-traumatic syndrome can play a cruel joke.

КА: Important that you understand this. You're holding up excellently, this is really a very difficult experience.

ТВ: All this time - when I was before captivity, in captivity, I didn't cry. I never had a tendency toward tearful displays. When in the bus they handed out our Ukrainian flags, I took it in my hands, buried my face in it and I cried. These were tears of joy, relief that that's it, I'm home. I'm in my country, I'm home.

КА: How glad I am for the opportunity to talk with you now. How wonderful that this all ended for you. Tatiana, you are such a strong person, you don't even realize.

ТВ: I'm just stating a fact. Yes, this happened, but this is a protective reaction of the organism. I understand that I still need to recover not only physically, thank God there are no critical moments, but the psyche is a delicate matter.

КА: Tatiana, tell me, is there anything about the full-scale war, about your work, about captivity, that you would like to tell yourself, but I didn't ask you about?

ТВ: It seems like to each of your questions what I felt and experienced, I answered that. There are many nuances that I maybe didn't touch on. I want to say about those brave guys at the bunker at "Azovstal," children who I'm like a mother to even by age. I looked at those colossal possibilities of the human organism, when there's complete unsanitary conditions, absence of normal medical help, they were healing and they were eager to go back to the surface to continue carrying out their assignments. I'm just amazed! Our nation is invincible. We will win this war, I became convinced from what I saw. In what conditions they survived, à la natural selection, the strongest survives, not even physically, but morally strongest. For us it was like the final stretch to exchange, so for us now it's also the final stretch. We're going toward this victory. To once and for all stop any claims to the territory of my country. I believe in my army, in my country. In the government that exists now, we chose it ourselves. We have what we deserve. The mentality will change and, naturally, there will be changes. The most difficult moment will be after the war, then it will be harder, we have many problems. We'll cope, I'm sure of this. And now [we need to] support any directions: both volunteering, and direct participation, and service in the army - this is what we can do, because this is our land, this is our home. We're defending our home, we didn't go with weapons in hand to a foreign country. This is our home, and we're right on our land. No one can dictate conditions, what internal policy should be in our state. As I said: if we don't like something, the government can be changed, but never the homeland. We will defend until victory.

КА: God grant victory comes soon!

ТВ: I don't just believe, I know this. I'm grateful to everyone who supports our country and me personally. I have many friends. I said, Ukraine, Poland, Italy pray for me. When I returned, it turned out that also Israel, Iraq and Georgia as well. That they know, support. I want to thank all those who believe in our country, support and help in any ways. I understand that without support from other countries it would be very hard for us.

КА: God grant that this all ends sooner, and you recover psychologically, physically and everything is good. Are you against me indicating your name and surname?

ТВ: Not against, I was at a press conference at the coordination headquarters. They know me both by face and by surname, I don't see reasons to hide this.

КА: Would you be against sharing your photograph with me?

ТВ: By the end of the day, because some photographs from the bunkers I managed to send to my daughter, told her to save them. And mine were destroyed. She'll just forward them to me, or she'll forward them directly. You understand, I had my 50th birthday at the bunker. And there's a photograph where the guys between shellings went up to the surface. You won't believe, on a flower bed they cut all the tulips and brought me an armful of tulips. At first I wanted to kill them, because the ship's artillery started working, and they weren't down below yet. Then I was just in such joyful shock. This was the best birthday. And this gift, living flowers in the underground, where there's no light, dust, dirt... These little sprouts of beautiful, living life, and this was for me. This was just wonderful.

КА: And when is your birthday?

ТВ: April 30th. This was just at the bunker at "Azovstal."

КА: Would you like to read the Material before publication, to approve it?

ТВ: I would be interested, I'm not against it.