They forced us to kiss their flag and the St. George’s ribbon

КА: Can you tell us about your teaching activities in general? How did you live and teach before all this horror that you had to endure? Please outline a bit what was happening with you before the moment when you were taken captive.

ВА: After university I went to work as a teacher at school. At first I taught mathematics, computer science, and after two years they gave me homeroom teaching responsibilities. Accordingly, I had a class that I worked with, considering also other classes that I also worked with. In principle, it was the most ordinary life – home, work, family, friends, nothing special. We went on some excursions with the children, went to the movies, talked. We could make some picnics when it was convenient for someone. If it was some holidays or something else, then we would make [picnics]. The children could happily arrange some tea parties for themselves at school or something else, they always invited me to join them. We arranged, they really liked to do... God, how would this be in Russian? "Secret..."

КА: Secret Santa?

ВА: "Secret Santa"? Yes, yes. They really liked that, we made it our tradition. When they had already grown up, I said: "Listen, at first, when you didn't know what it was, how it was, I showed you," they said: "No, no, we would be happy for you to participate in all this." They were very close-knit. Then coronavirus, this pandemic, distance learning. It was difficult for everyone initially because no one knew how it would all work. But then more or less everyone learned and distance learning started. But [we] found time to communicate outside of lessons too, in principle, nothing particularly special, ordinary, like everywhere, like everyone.

КА: Do I understand correctly that you lived...

ВА: First in Brovary.

КА: And your parents in Stary Bykov, yes?

ВА: Yes, yes, yes.

КА: So you lived in Brovary, did you live there alone or with your sister?

ВА: No, I lived there alone.

КА: And your family in Stary Bykov?

ВА: My parents are in Stary Bykov, and my sisters, each already has their own family. They live in different cities, but we communicate very often, we call each other daily, write to each other, this is normal for us.

КА: Did your teaching change somehow from the start of the full-scale war? Did you transfer, I don't know, classes to basements or to distance learning?

ВА: When all this started, at first in Ukraine they said that children would still be on vacation for some time. And then, when we already had the "All-Ukrainian Online School" program running, lessons were already recorded there. This was a year before this, when the pandemic started, then they began recording lessons because not all teachers had the opportunity to conduct [lessons] from home, someone didn't have internet or had a poor connection. Then they started recording lessons for TV channels and showing them on television, children then studied that way if the teacher from school couldn't conduct online lessons. Not everyone had the opportunity [to conduct online lessons] because someone was already on occupied territory, someone had left, someone could, someone couldn't. But it happened that I didn't catch that time when teachers more or less had already started going online for communication. When children had already started studying at my school remotely, I was no longer in Ukraine.

КА: So you were teaching offline all this time?

ВА: I had distance learning only when they closed schools for quarantine, we studied online. Before this there were cases when I taught online. I remember buying myself a graphics tablet then because I needed to somehow connect, show all this – this is mathematics. This isn't just computer science where you made a screen demonstration, showed, demonstrated. Mathematics, unfortunately, can't be done that way. So I connected other means as well, in principle it was normal, I worked that way when possible.

КА: I understand that Brovary is quite close to Kyiv. While you were teaching, was it relatively quiet and was it possible to conduct lessons normally?

ВА: Well yes, more or less. I'm saying, online lessons started, as far as I learned, this was somewhere in April, if I'm not mistaken, they started conducting lessons already. But I simply wasn't in Ukraine in April anymore.

КА: Yes, I understood. As far as I understand, your parents, this place where they live – it's quite far. This is somewhere near Chernihiv?

ВА: No. This is Chernihiv Oblast, but it's 60 kilometers from Brovary.

КА: Can you tell us what happened directly before captivity? Did you just go to your parents? How did you get there? And when was this?

ВА: February 24th, not even that, before February 23rd they very often started talking about needing to learn to pack this little suitcase...

КА: Emergency bag.

ВА: Emergency bag, yes. Then we talked, discussed what needed to be bought for it, whether this would be needed at all or not. I then, you know, was very skeptical about this, I said: "Oh come on, are you talking seriously? This can't happen in principle, what war? 21st century, are you serious?" When on the 24th the whole country, the whole city woke up from something exploding somewhere, we then already understood that that's it, this is all real, full-scale invasion. Then yes, I already started packing things. But many of my friends, acquaintances, they were just chaotically packing, running somewhere. I said: "No, I won't go so quickly." I [packed] calmly, moreover I saw what chaos was happening on the street, that people couldn't leave, there were very huge traffic jams. Plus where to go, what to do? I understood that in principle I could only go to my parents. Why – because I knew that they wouldn't go anywhere, they would sit here, in their house. I also said that I'm only going to my parents and only because I won't leave them alone. My other sisters have their own families, naturally, no one will go anywhere because there are children, [they needed to take care] so [they] would be safe. And gathering everyone in one place – there's no sense in that. It turned out that then very many people were going from cities specifically to villages, all because they thought it would be safer there. Even if something happens, even if it hits the house, for example, there will be an impact or something else, then there won't be water supply, or heating, well none of this will be there. But if I'm in a village, here there's still food and water, that is, here in principle everything is there. So I decided that I'm going to my parents. February 24th I arrived here to my parents. But February 27th the Russians were already on the territory of our settlement.

КА: Do I understand correctly that when you were still at home, this was relatively close to Boryspil?

ВА: Yes, it's not far. The cities aren't too close, but for example about an hour's drive between cities, somewhere like that.

КА: I think on the 24th it was already quite loud for you.

ВА: Noisy, yes. We also had two military units in Brovary, and there were impacts there, this was all in Brovary too.

КА: And how did you get to your parents, how did you travel?

ВА: My neighbor, she works in Brovary, and she lived on one street, she lives not far from us here. She went to Brovary to work daily. And then she said: "I'll come, – that is, there, to work, – I'll stop by, figure out what's what there, take some groceries and come back." And she picked me up here.

КА: And how was the road, how did you travel?

ВА: When we were traveling, everyone was going toward Kyiv, leaving for the west of the country. And we were going a bit in the opposite direction. Our road wasn't loaded too heavily. There weren't such queues at gas stations or anything else anymore. Well, there were queues, but not such huge ones as in the morning. When we arrived, we already saw how they were setting up checkpoints, how they were already preparing to [defend the city]. Everyone then already understood, this was afternoon, everyone knew this phrase "We'll take Kyiv in three days." That is, that they're going to Kyiv, this was already understood in principle, so we already saw both how they were preparing and how territorial defense was gathering or someone else. But in principle our road took the same time as usual. We just drove, we discussed all this, and we were really just in shock from all this. When we were driving, we said: "Well either we're going to a safe place, that is everything will be fine, or we'll meet them there." Because this is a direct highway Kyiv-Sumy [editor's note: Sumy Oblast borders the Russian Federation]. Since the offensive was from the side of Sumy Oblast, from the border, we understood that they could come to us from that side. And that's what happened.

КА: How did all this happen? You were in the house with your parents, what was happening on this day, February 27th, correct?

ВА: Yes, yes. Then at noon, I don't know how to properly call this. There is and was such a thing as blowing up bridges, destroying them so that between settlements, between cities, there would be no possibility to drive on the road, to somehow complicate the path [for Russian military]. We have a bridge between two settlements that was blown up. As soon as they blew up this bridge, the first thing that happened after the explosion – a wave went. All the windows shook, the lights went out immediately, we immediately lost electricity, gas was immediately lost. Gas was naturally turned off. There were still some problems after this, that it hit somewhere there, that is, we immediately had no gas and absolutely no electricity. This was approximately somewhere after 12 o'clock, and already in an hour and a half or two, we already heard gunshots, there was already some shooting, there was some resistance, some actions were happening. This was in the neighboring settlement, we heard this. Since we knew that they blew up the bridge, it was destroyed, we understood that they would need to somehow set it up there, do something so they could drive further in this direction. For about an hour and a half or two we heard how their engineering equipment [was working], they were building something. This was very loud when you hear how they hum, roar, I don't know how to say it correctly, the motors, all this. After some time we saw that their equipment was coming out onto our road, our side, already in our settlement, in our village. Well what can people do? We stood, watched all this from the side, but this was very scary of course because we didn't know what actions there would be, what they would do. Naturally, everyone then already knew, since we had no electricity, they started saying that there should be light masking, so we tried not to connect anywhere with a flashlight or anything else, or with candles, so that the windows wouldn't be visible to them, so they wouldn't go anywhere. Then they started saying that you still need to tape up windows, that is close them so nothing would be visible. Then we heard repeatedly how shelling of the road occurred. They did this for their own safety. Every evening we had tracer bullets flying here. It happened that they launched a drone, the drone flew here, looked at streets, flew into houses along the street and looked at what the situation was. Then we already saw and heard how they drove further along the road to Kyiv. We understood that there are other villages further, there's tree planting. If you think logically, then it wasn't completely safe for them there. The thing is that resistance started here with us, we understood that they could establish themselves here with us. In principle, that's what happened. They came in, were here.

КА: And you said there was resistance, what do you mean?

ВА: As far as I know, we should have had some territorial defense, someone should have been there. I don't know who exactly, but someone was there. There were even such conversations that they either wounded or killed one person from territorial defense. Right at the moment when all this was happening. Even if we assume that someone was there, let's say there were 10-15 people, I don't know, I won't say, if it's possible not to specify the quantity, just a supposition. When we saw the convoy that was driving here that evening, this was about a hundred units of equipment. And this is only what came here to us, in our settlement.

КА: These are Russians?

ВА: They also remained. Essentially, well how can you oppose tanks when a whole convoy of them is driving? It's actually very good that everyone else survived, let's put it that way.

КА: So resistance – you mean specifically territorial defense, Armed Forces of Ukraine, military resistance?

ВА: At that moment we didn't have military here, this was just territorial defense.

КА: It's clear that opposing tanks and a large amount of equipment is impossible, it's suicide.

ВА: Simply [the military] either didn't know how many of them were coming, or I don't know why it happened that way.

КА: And when they, the Russians, entered the village, shelling began. You, it turns out, sat at home and didn't go out for safety reasons?

ВА: Of course, we tried not to [go out] at all. We walked around the yard outside, but in the evening when it got dark, we didn't go out. We tried not to attract any attention at all. During the day yes, we went outside, neighbors communicated with each other through fences, but this was communication, you know how, we listened to any rustle, we listened to the situation in general, what was happening. Such, let's say, more or less communication with neighbors started for us, with others, when we could already open the gate to the street, go out to see what's there and how it is, this was maximum two meters, probably, from the fence. Because our street goes in such a way that the main highway is visible. And our street, it sort of goes down a bit from the main highway. When you stand on the highway, you can in principle look toward the middle of the street, what's happening there, who's walking along the street, this is visible from the highway. Moreover, excuse me, when people have a rifle, optical sight and so on, it's all visible like in the palm of your hand. So we didn't go out on the street, we tried to be only in our yard.

КА: And when you managed to at least communicate a bit with neighbors, what did you talk about?

ВА: Well about what: we asked how they felt in general, whether everything was normal, how everyone was reacting, who had what opportunity to charge phones. Then, probably after several weeks, we already started talking about who had what groceries, who had what left, because there were very many visitors from Kyiv. And no one expected this would be for such a long time, so then we shared. Some neighbors lived with us because they had no electricity, gas, and people's heating was either from electricity or from gas, or it was all connected, it was cold in houses. But we had heating that could work with either one or the other, we heated with firewood. We had the opportunity – we took people in, some people lived with us. We simply asked what, where, what information they saw, what information in general about the situation in the country. Because we could charge phones only either [if] someone had generators, or we charged in the car. But naturally everyone understood that this required gasoline and they economized as they could. Different things, but mainly this was discussion of what was happening in general. Because there wasn't much information, when possible, whoever found what information somewhere, that's how we communicated.

КА: And how were things with groceries at your home?

ВА: As one of my neighbors says, and in principle this is correct: "We're in a village, everything is in a village." Really, we had almost everything in terms of groceries. The problem was only with bread because to bake it at home, you needed some oven, stove or electric oven, but there was no electricity. In principle now everyone has moved away from this, that there should be a Ukrainian піч [editor's note: stove in Ukrainian] at home, I just don't know how this would be in Russian. Very few people still have such a thing. This was the only problem – bread, but everything else was in principle there. Plus people had everything in refrigerators, freezers had some groceries, there were frozen foods. But when there was no electricity, naturally people were already cooking all this and preserving it as they could. We even shared groceries with other people because we understood that some people who came from Kyiv didn't have all this. Some even said: "We came, thought maximum a week and that's it."

КА: Let's probably move to the beginning of the most traumatic part of your story. As far as I understand, they came to your house, the Russians.

ВА: Yes, they came with a search first.

КА: When did this happen?

ВА: March 25th. They came in, at first it was just a search, inspection of all structures in the yard. They walked around the yard, they checked whether there were weapons anywhere and left. They said: "Everything's good" and went further. But after this in a few minutes either a car or an APC, I think a car if I'm not mistaken, drove up to the house. Then their commander got out and said: "Go in, – that is, – inspect." Mama says that they already looked at everything we have, we don't have anything, everything's normal. He says: "I didn't see anything, I don't know anything, they'll look again. Nothing terrible, if there's nothing, then nothing terrible." The soldiers started, he gave them the command to conduct a search. What they were looking for, we didn't understand, because in principle we don't have anything and didn't have anything. Then he started, very, very rudely he shouted, in general they treated my parents disrespectfully.

КА: And what did he shout?

ВА: The senior [officer], well how to tell you correctly, they called names, they swore very strongly. The commander started shouting: "Where is your man? Why is he hiding?" Papa came out of the house, says: "No one's hiding, it just happened that I'm in the house." We were with mama in the summer kitchen outside at first, but then we came out because the soldiers came into the yard, we went out onto the street. They then put father on his knees, started threatening that now they'll shoot him and something else there. I said, I started asking: "Please, let him stand up because he has sick legs, he has sick knees, he won't last long like this." Plus [they ordered father to put] his hands behind his head or something else. This is, first of all, simply shock, such an incomprehensible situation, and in such a way, they shout very loudly. Then they still allowed [papa] to sit on a stool. He says: "Listen, here are my hands, I'm not doing anything. I'm calmly lowering them, nothing's happening, everything's normal." Then the soldiers who were there, more or less, as far as I understand, these were privates, they just stood there. And then he took me and mama into the house: "Give everything here, all computers, laptops, phones, all equipment, give everything here, everything for checking, we'll check everything." We already understood what kind of [checking] this would be, then already around settlements and on the internet, on different social networks, information spread that they very often take under the pretext of checking and don't return anything. This happened not only with equipment but also with other things. They stole all this sort of, didn't return anything, and therefore we knew that this could happen, we hid phones as we could. It happened that they found my phone, then found mama's phone, took the computer. I said: "There's nothing there." They took flash drives. I said: "Listen, there's really nothing there." – "They'll check there, return everything." I said: "Well yes, of course, they'll return it." When they found my phone, they started saying: "That's it, we found her, this is her, take her, pack her." They then started asking: "What and to whom did you send?" I said: "Well to whom? I sent to my sister that everything's fine, that you're driving around here." I said: "I sent to my sister that you're driving around here. About the fact that you're driving around here, everyone already knows anyway." That is, this wasn't some, I don't know, secret information or something else there. They immediately said that that's it: "Take her, pack her, we found her." I then didn't pay special attention to this, this I remembered and that's it. I in principle didn't even think about the fact that... When they were taking me, father asked: "For how long are you taking her? When will she come home?" They told him: "This is several days, they'll interrogate her, question her and then release her." But believing all this – we didn't particularly believe then, but we also didn't know in principle what would happen next.

КА: And when they started shouting that "this is her," "pack her," did you think at all about what they meant? What did they mean by this?

ВА: We then understood that they could take [someone]. There was already information that they had taken several people captive and they were in their captivity. But then they released some, and some were still in their captivity. We understood that they could still take into captivity for some time, where all this would be and how they would behave – no one knew this.

КА: How did you feel at this moment, what were you experiencing at this moment?

ВА: How to say... There was a time when simply, you know, some hysterical [state]. Like I'm not crying, but some incomprehensible state. But this wasn't some fear that something would happen to me. I was worried about how my parents would be here, what the reaction would be, what would happen next. I understood that I couldn't influence the situation anymore – except with my behavior and that's it. Even when they were taking me, I sat at first, I was partly scared because you don't know what will happen to you – that's yes. But on the other hand, I understood that now some panic, my fear, it won't bring me anything good. My task now was to somehow get maximum information from what they want from me, what awaits me in the future, what could happen to relatives and what the situation here would be.

КА: And how were your parents at this moment?

ВА: Naturally, mama had hysteria, I don't know, words can't express it simply. Father – he was in such a state, how to say, in certain numbness even. Because when I approached him, it's simply you know, like a person, stone face – and really you've just gone numb, that's it. As far as I understand, he then couldn't even speak normally. I, of course, didn't know this immediately, I learned this when I returned home. Then they told me that they came to them for searches two or three more times.

КА: To your parents?

ВА: To my parents, yes, yes, yes, after they took me, they came with searches several more times, then they already took money from my parents, sort of, and some other [things] there, that is everything they saw, they took what they liked. Two days later they took my mama. On the first day when they took me, they took my uncle, we just live next to each other. But my parents didn't even immediately know that they took my uncle, this is father's brother. The next day grandmother came to us, only then they learned that uncle was also gone, that they also took him. Two days later, when they had already taken me to Russia, I was already in Russia at that moment, March 28th I was already in Russia, they took my mama. Before this, of course, they came, took mama and a neighbor for interrogation, they took them back and forth. And then at one moment they came and told mama: "Pack your things, you're coming with us."

КА: And how old is your mama?

ВА: My mama is 56. They took her, she was 3 days at someone's private house, she also sat in a cellar, and they threatened her too. Father already told me here when I returned that a soldier sat next to him, he says that he's just sitting, swallowing some pills or something and says: "You know what? I'll shoot you now and nothing will happen to me, and no one will even know who did it." They threatened, they shot. When they came, they shot – we even have a hole in the house wall from a bullet, the bullet remained inside, there probably 20 centimeters or so inside, somewhere approximately like that. They didn't get it out. There remained in the yard, there were cartridges from shots, shell casings were lying around. Papa collected [all this] then, he showed, investigators came here too, he says: "Here, please, I'm not just telling you some fairy tales or something else, they just wouldn't be lying here like this." Yes, they threatened, they told, like: "Well won't you tell us?" – and they say: "But what should we tell you? You see for yourselves what's here, how it is." They conducted these searches, it's incomprehensible what they were looking for in general. Sometimes mama said that they were looking for my documents, although they took all passports immediately on the first day: not only mine, but also my parents' passports, grandmother's. They took everything. And what other documents they were still looking for... Mama simply supposed that possibly they were looking for my education diplomas because then they interrogated me a lot, wanted to make sure whether I really am a mathematics teacher. This is now I'm already making such conclusions, comparing some facts. They then said: "Maybe they recruited you, or maybe you're like some secret agent?" I said: "Are you serious?" I had the most ordinary life before all this, what secret agent? They didn't believe this, they said they would check, that is everything seriously.

КА: And when they took your mama and when they came again with searches to your home – did they say at all what they wanted? That is, what they needed from your parents when they had already taken you captive?

ВА: They told my parents that they were bad parents. That they raised me badly, they said that because of me very many of their brothers died. Since then in the phone they found my correspondence with a person to whom I reported that their equipment went there, that is in principle I was helping our armed forces. And it turned out that they found this correspondence and accordingly they then came already. I didn't understand what they demanded, and I don't understand to this day why they came, what they were looking for, because parents said that we simply don't understand really, don't understand what they were looking for.

КА: They took you, at what moment did you understand that they found the correspondence? As I understand, you were reporting their movements to some military person?

ВА: The thing is, how to tell you, I didn't know this person. There were simply people who said: "Listen, let's have you not transmit [information] through 2-3 people, we'll give you the contact of a person who deals with all this, who collects this information. You'll report directly to this person." I said: "Yes, good." And I had only text messages. I didn't communicate with this person about anything else at all. From this person there was either a plus sign or "ok," that is that the person simply accepted the information and that's it.

КА: And when did this start? You first told some acquaintances, yes, and then they connected you directly?

ВА: Then very many people knew where I was because from the 24th very many acquaintances, friends called each other, asked: "Where are you? What are you? How are you?" About the fact that they [editor's note: referring to Russian military] were already on the territory of the settlement, everyone knew, everyone learned there. You understand, when someone appears somewhere, naturally immediately we monitored very much, found on social networks. People simply wrote on social networks that such and such is located there, that is in principle everyone knew who was where, what our front line was here. Initially all this was in open access in general, and then it just [happened] like that, I don't even remember at what moment it happened that people say [to me in messages]: "You're there, yes? Everything normal? Maybe you can [tell about Russian soldiers' movements]?" I said: "Let's try." In principle I'm sitting here in place anyway. They found this correspondence very quickly in principle. They took me on the night of the 25th, and on the 26th they were already interrogating me specifically about the fact that they found in my phone.

КА: Let's stop here then, let's restore the chronology a bit. So they took you from home, where did they take you?

ВА: First I spent the night in a cellar in a private house on my street, at the end of the street. Then on the 26th they transferred me and other people whom they also took that same day, they transferred us to a checkpoint on the highway, there where they had established themselves. They tried, at least tried to talk with me, something like similar to an interrogation, but I wouldn't call it an interrogation. This was simply some conversation, talk, I don't know. Then a car came and they took us to Novy Bykov, to the neighboring village, where their headquarters was located directly, where they lived. There in the boiler room of the local club they held all the other prisoners. And they brought us there already on the 26th. My first interrogation was also on the 26th, it was in principle the only one we had in the village. They talked with me, wrote a certain text in which I had to say who I am, what I do, the status that they gave me, tell about this. Indicate that I understand that my actions brought harm to Russians in such a way. I had to say this on video. They recorded video. They recorded video, sent it to someone, said everything's normal, like it'll work, everything's good. And on March 27th they took me and another civilian man – they took us and transported us already to Russia. March 28th I was already registered in the settlement of Glushkovo on the territory of a tent camp where all prisoners of war from Ukraine were located.

КА: And how did they transport you there? Were you in handcuffs, did they put a bag on your head?

ВА: We had, yes, our eyes were tied, our hands were tied. First we rode in one car, then they transferred us to another car, and then from the car they already transported us by helicopter to Russia.

КА: So you didn't see what was happening around you all this time?

ВА: No, no, I didn't see. Everything I could, I could [understand] this only from their words or from what I heard.

КА: Throughout this road, if it can be called that at all, did they communicate with you somehow? Did they tell you something, beat you, threaten you?

ВА: Yes, they were very aggressively disposed, of course. Some were aggressive, some more or less calm. And when I was here, on the territory of the village in captivity, they didn't beat me, they didn't do anything to me. They even said: "We have a lady here, we have a girl here, careful, don't touch her." But when I was already in the car, then yes, there were threats there, they called names, said: "Don't know if you'll arrive alive or not." That is like: "Your people might hit us, we might die. Because of you they killed our people, ours suffered. We came here to liberate you, to help you here, and you treat us like this." There were soldiers who simply jumped into the car and started beating, without any there... "Here we came to fight for you, and you are such..." They thought that we were those who mined some road. They tell them: "Calm down, these aren't those at all, these are completely different ones." That is sort of like: "Stop beating, enough already." And then they said in general: "Get out of here. Don't touch prisoners at all." That is they [shielded us] from all this. But when they brought us to Russia, then there yes, there concrete threats already poured: "We'll torture too, we'll do to you what your Ukrainian soldiers did to others." They showed different videos of how they torment people, what tortures people endure in general. I said: "Don't show me this. I simply don't understand what you want to achieve from me with all this? You think this will influence me, I'll now tell you there what doesn't actually exist or what? Why are you doing all this?" They told details of all these tortures, I said: "You tell it as if you've already done this. As if you already have some experience." They say: "No, we don't do this with our own hands, we have specially trained people for this." I said: "Perfect, thank you for that. Normal, you tell that you came to liberate, help with something, but actually I see how you help, what kind of humane society you have." Some reacted very aggressively, you see how [a] person has real hatred in their eyes. Some shouted, somehow tried to frighten. It was different, but at that moment they didn't beat me.

КА: Let's rewind back a bit. I want to clarify, at what moment, if this can be called that at all, did they present these accusations to you? How did they let you understand that they saw the correspondence with the military person where you say where they are located?

ВА: This was already on the 26th.

КА: So this was still in Ukraine?

ВА: Yes, yes, this was still in Ukraine. They immediately told me here that "You're a spotter." This status they gave me immediately – spotter-coordinator. With this status they sent me.

КА: And when they told you that you're a spotter, what were you experiencing at this moment? How did you react to everything happening? ВА: Well, how could I react? I tried... First of all, I didn't create any panic for myself. I tried to listen as much as possible to what they were saying, to understand what might happen to me next, what awaited me further. I communicated with them, well with them – with whom? These were the soldiers who were guarding me from the other prisoners they had. They were interested, basically new people, what I had been doing before this. We talked about such general topics. They just really asked questions: "What do you think, these Banderites of yours, Nazis and so on..." I say: "Listen, we don't have such things, what are you talking about? In your opinion, who are Banderites? Explain." They say: "You all say such things, they brainwashed everyone here. And do you know that you have some kind of biolab here?" I say: "Are you serious? What biolab? What are you talking about?" Well, such nonsense, they sometimes said, I just sat and thought: God, do people really believe this? I say: "You take, [you have] a bunch of phones. You took my phone, take it, read the news that we write. Look at what people post on the internet. These are real witnesses of everything that's happening. This isn't some made-up story, something written somewhere, some article published somewhere or something else. Here, go to people's pages [on social media] and look at what people photograph, post, share, what's happening before their eyes right now" – "No, we know that you have such ones – Nazis, and so on." I sat like that and thought that maybe I'll still manage to somehow get through to people, that there's no such thing. But after some time I understood that this...

КА: Useless?

ВА: It's just useless, yes. You tell them, they say: "Yes, yes," and then like this, oh – and they do everything opposite to what they just said. They don't perceive [what I tell them] – well, what's the point in this? Why waste yourself, your energy on something that people won't understand? Plus, I still needed to think about not harming myself and not harming others who are there. Because, as I already said, they say one thing, but do another.

КА: Yes, that's true. So you mentioned that when they brought you to Russian territory, to this border tent city for prisoners of war, they already used physical force there. When they hit you for the first time, how did this happen?

ВА: The first blows were in the car on the road. This was still, probably, when we were in Ukraine. Then a person just asked, he saw how I reacted... For me this was really a shock, and he then asked: "What, nobody touched you before this?" I say: "No." And he just asks again: "Am I the first?" I say: "Yes." And he, this person, just moved away from me and just said: "That's it, don't touch her." When they transported me further, as I understand, I was traveling with paratroopers, one of the paratroopers said: "I'm sitting next to her, nobody touch her anymore." When I arrived in Glushkovo, nobody touched me in Glushkovo.

КА: Can we stop at this moment for a second? When he hit you for the first time, why did this happen? Did he just start beating or did he say something before this?

ВА: When this was, I'm saying, this was in the car, he then came in, said: "Ah, these are prisoners? And what about her? And who is this? And who is this?" Since I had a fur coat and the hood covered my face, it wasn't immediately visible that this was a girl, because I had a black fur coat, black clothes, it was all twisted up like that. And then he asked: "Is this a girl there or what?" When there were the first blows, he was partly, as I understood, in shock. Because, first, a girl, second, nobody had ever touched [her in her life], he was the first to do this. I don't know, maybe something human flashed through this person's mind, because from his further words, when he was asking this: "Is this the first time they're doing this? The first time from me?" He was a bit surprised, you know. After this he moved away and said: "That's it, don't touch the prisoners." You understand, for them partly we, Ukrainians, when [they] took us captive, then for them they just don't take people captive like that. This was already something for them. [If] you're in captivity, that's it, you're guilty of something, so everything can be done. I understood this, of course, after some time, but basically that's how it was.

КА: And then they transported you to Glushkovo?

ВА: Yes, they transported us to Glushkovo. There almost all the main interrogations took place, which were from different structures, from different organizations. Those who spoke with me there, they didn't introduce themselves, they didn't have any...

КА: Identification marks?

ВА: Identification marks, yes. But then I saw that [it was] one structure – this was military police and there was also military commandant's office. The person I communicated with from the military commandant's office, he's probably the only person who had some patch, some chevrons attached, well on these...

КА: On the forearm?

ВА: On the clothes, yes-yes-yes, yes. This person didn't hide who he was and from which structure he was, from which unit he was. I stayed there for 2 weeks, nobody beat me there, everything was normal. And already on April 8, all the prisoners of war who were there, they transported them to the pre-trial detention center.

КА: Let's stop a bit in Glushkovo. Can you tell how the interrogations went, what they tried to find out from you?

ВА: They were all interested in who this person was, to whom I was sending, why I was sending, whether I understood what I was doing, whether I knew the consequences. They were interested [in what was happening] from February 24, they asked what was happening before I was taken captive. They were interested in whether I really was a teacher. Mainly these were questions related to what I was doing during the full-scale invasion.

КА: And how did you answer their questions that they asked you?

ВА: When I was in Ukraine, I spoke in Ukrainian. I say: "Listen, I'm at home, why should I switch to Russian? You understand what I'm talking about, why all this?" When I was already in Russia, I understood that I was completely not at home. There I wouldn't even have protection, there wouldn't be support from anyone or anyone at all. I understand that around me there are people who hardly wish me anything good. So when I was on Ukrainian territory, I said that we have many people who speak Russian, this is normal. We didn't have any hatred toward the Russian language at that moment at all, people communicate with each other in Russian. And they knew that I could speak Russian, they say: "That's it, speak Russian so we understand what and how." Basically I answered questions normally –– they asked, I told. To the extent that they asked, that's how I answered. Some liked it, some didn't like it, to some I tried to explain more, tell that really nobody kills anyone for nothing with us, people aren't hated because people speak Russian, because people came from Russia to Ukraine or something else there, or for a different nationality. They said: "You're telling, this can't be. We know that you have this, this, this, this, this." They brought up a bunch of their different arguments. They then said: "You've had war for 8 years, you have war in Donbas going on. Why are you silent? Why were you silent then? Why do you have Maidan? This happened with you, that happened." They found such arguments, I say: "You're twisting things a bit, not everything was as you say. You don't know why all this started." We started talking about all this, they started pinning on me that I was at Maidan, did something somewhere else. I understood that it's better to answer their questions clearly, nothing extra. Because I'm entering some other field a bit, to try to explain that such things don't happen, what they found with us in Ukraine or what they were told happens in Ukraine. These people then just take some other arguments, it all gets twisted somehow, they can accuse of something else. I understood that it's better not to say anything extra at all. They found ways to tie you to something else, pin something on you, tell you. There were cases when they just called and said: "We have proof that you did something there." I say: "I didn't do this." –– "And we have proof." I say: "You can't have it, because I didn't do this." Well, how can there be something proving, if this didn't happen at all? That is, they even tried to intimidate a bit this way.

КА: And what exactly were they trying to accuse you of? You say: "I didn't do this" – what exactly were they trying to tell you?

ВА: First they said: "You were setting geopoints, geolocations, you walked around the village, collected information." I say: "Listen, I didn't go further than my yard." Well, if I wasn't there, then what proof? "We know you were at Maidan, you did something there." I say like this: "No, I wasn't there." I really wasn't there. "And we have photographs." I say: "Well, look at your photographs, please, be my guest, but I wasn't there." Generally they incriminated me with the article "Espionage," "Spying" or whatever it's properly called there. I'm like: "Are you serious? How did it manifest? I was at home, didn't really do anything like that, wasn't engaged in anything." They tried to pin at least something on me that I didn't do. "We found on your phone, you were posting photos, videos." I say: "No, wait, there was no such thing and can't be." This was purely even physically impossible. I brought concrete arguments, said that: "We have bad internet, messages didn't even send, what are you talking about, well what videos, photos, what are you talking about?" This way they even two or three months later tried [to intimidate me]: "This person knows you, he's military, he was there and there, he did something there, he says you were doing something there." I say: "Listen, I'm seeing this person for the first time." I don't know, maybe someone knows me, I'm not some secretive person who would hide somewhere. I, like ordinary people, have social media profiles. I'm a person who works with other people, possibly people know me. So what, what's the point? This isn't proof yet that I committed some crimes.

КА: So they were trying to prove to you that you're a spy?

ВА: Yes, they tried to do all this somehow like that. They even said, sometimes such a phrase sounded: "Look, she communicates as if she was trained or something." And I say: "Listen, who could have trained me in everything, if I'm in a completely different direction?" They say: "What if you were recruited?" They even sent me for a lie detector test, I took a polygraph, because they didn't believe that I was a teacher at all. They thought that certain special services recruited me and that I work for them.

КА: How did this polygraph go?

ВА: Oh, there was such a situation there: on May 5 they call me, they read me the results of their investigation, which says that all charges are dropped from me, since there's no proof that I caused any harm. They read just like that, that my actions didn't cause any harm to the Russian Federation, military and so on, that nobody died [because of me], that is, they acquitted me. They just told me, read, it was correctly formulated, I just don't remember word for word anymore, that if I return to Ukrainian territory and continue to engage in such similar activity, then they can take me into custody and already judge me according to their laws, then already definitely judge. And since there's no corpus delicti, no proof, everything's normal, they sort of acquitted me. They told me that: "As soon as there's the first exchange, we'll put you on the lists and send you home, we don't need you here anymore." Everything's good, on May 6 they take people. We understand this might be an exchange, and they take me for a polygraph. This is a state when people left, and you stay, and they even acquitted you, but they're taking you for a polygraph. I had some complete dissonance in my head at first, such confusion. I think, well what? They acquitted me yesterday, and now they're taking me for a polygraph, how is this? What in general, well what's the matter, what's happening? Questions were asked there: whether I'm involved in any Nazi groups, whether I support what they're doing in Ukraine now, and so on. Such questions, I'd even say provocative. You sort of can give an answer, but sort of not very clearly. They asked me whether I recruited anyone, whether I was recruited. This was partly a check on whether I'm some spy or something. And I think: "Listen, I have nothing to hide." And what I could have hidden or something, specifically from correspondence, they already saw. I have nothing more to hide. I think calmly to myself, I passed the polygraph without any problems. Naturally, they didn't tell me anything right away, didn't tell me any results. They just said: "Everything's normal, go, that's it. Maybe we'll see you again, or maybe not." It turned out that after this I didn't meet with anyone anymore, at least with the polygraph examiner. As I understood, everything was normal there.

КА: We'll return to this moment, because we jumped ahead to May already. Let's go back a bit. You spent, it turns out, 2 weeks in Glushkovo, and then they transferred you where? To the pre-trial detention center?

ВА: To the pre-trial detention center, to the city of Kursk.

КА: Aha, already to Kursk. What happened there? How did they contain you, how did they transport you there?

ВА: They transported me and all the other prisoners who were in Glushkovo, they transported us then in a prison van. In the prison van there were 2 cells then. They transported me, there was one more woman there, and all the rest were men. We then had the opportunity to talk and then we agreed that as soon as they free the first one, these people find relatives and close ones, inform where I am, in what condition, what happened to me. I just said that you find my sister, because I understood that mom's contacts, they were lost, and I don't know if they renewed them or not. Sister, I know 100%, she'll be in touch. I told how to find her, I say: "You'll inform, she'll ask questions, answer everything she asks." I was sure that they would send these people earlier than me, because they basically had no accusation, there weren't even any grounds to detain them. Well, plus the woman was sick, she had all the documents confirming this. They didn't have any conditions for her detention. And basically, I'm saying, there were no grounds at all [to keep them in captivity]. I understood that they would free them soon, so I made an agreement with these people. When we arrived at the pre-trial detention center, they separated us all, and then different things happened with each person. Because each had their own status in which this person arrived there. And during the time in Glushkovo I learned that the status of spotter, they hate these people, to the bone they hate them.

КА: How did you understand this?

ВА: They talked among themselves. They didn't use any physical force on me, but when this was a man [with the same spotter status], they could beat him very badly. When we arrived at the pre-trial detention center, when they took me from the prison van, there was just a question: "Is this her?" They said: "Yes, this is her." Well, that's it, and then the most brutal, most difficult began. Then the intake process occurred. And intake – this is... how to say...

КА: Yes, I roughly imagine, unfortunately. But of course, tell me. When you have to go through the corridor.

ВА: Yes, first this was an interrogation, but before the interrogation they had to bring me to that cell where they interrogated me. Everything started exactly with the interrogation, this was the beginning, this was some kind of hell. I didn't understand at all what was wrong, why. One boss came up and says: "I didn't come here [to] fight with women. But here you are, why did you do this? Do you understand that you were killing people?" They pressured very strongly psychologically, they threatened me: "We'll do this, this, this, this, this to you." These were all threats to life and so on. I said: "You didn't even ask anything. If I had resisted, didn't cooperate, didn't communicate or didn't do something else, then I would have understood still. But when you haven't even asked anything yet and already started this process of yours, then this isn't logical at all." After this there was such a phrase, [this was] the first thing that pulled me up concretely, when the investigator came in and says: "I called and said to leave your hair for you." I was shocked, because this was still some addition to what was happening in general. I'm like: "Yes, good, thank you." And then you think: "What do you mean, they left my hair for me? Were they supposed to cut it off or what?" Then the person told me, explained what the rules for staying in the pre-trial detention center are: "When you enter the cell, it will be much easier for you. Until the cell you need to endure." I didn't understand what this was about. When they already brought me out to the corridor, they were leading me, there was a phrase between those people who were leading me: "Where to with her?" And they said: "Her to all the others." To all the others – this meant that they were taking me to that corridor where just before other men had been, with whom all this was happening. Not only did I see this happen to some, then all this happened to me. It was all the same to them who you are, what you are. They just had this – you're a spotter, you have such a status, because of you our people died, you're guilty of everything, burn in hell, and so on, and so on.

КА: I understand that this is very difficult and this is very traumatic experience, but can you try to remember and tell about this very intake, about this very corridor?

ВА: There are no video cameras on this corridor. There were very many [military] present, this was special forces, not Federal Penitentiary Service employees. All were in uniform, balaclavas, they hid their faces. This was the use of a taser, because a taser, it doesn't leave traces, they knew this and they used it. They forced [us] to kiss their flag, and told that we don't honor the memory of Great Patriotic War veterans. They forced [us] to kiss this St. George ribbon, they forced [us] to tell, sing their anthem. This was, this was just beating, it was all the same to them who you are, what you are. You say that you can't stand anymore, and they say: "Stand, nothing, no need to tell us here that you're so weak or something." There were moments, there were blows to different parts of the body, nothing stopped them. But then, when all this more or less ended, they took me for sanitary processing, as they said. Before this they took fingerprints, photographed, like they were starting a case, as I understand. There was a moment when I said that I would lose consciousness. They said: "You're a good actress from a burned theater. If you feel bad, then we'll cheer you up now." This was a hint about the taser, because after this it sounded, you could hear the sound of how they turned it on and how it works. And I'm standing like this and saying: "I don't care, do what you want, I don't care anymore." They already saw that I sort of... And I'm standing, I feel that I already have, you know, my hands, legs are getting numb, they become like cotton, they're already heavy. I say: "I'm going to fall now," – and there you needed to keep your hands behind your back. They say: "Well lean against the locker," – there was a [locker] standing nearby or something. I leaned a bit like this, with my shoulder or I don't know [with what], leaned slightly and then say: "I'm really going to fall now." They say: "You stand, stand." And [the first thing I] remember next is when they were already trying to bring me to my senses. Only then they understood that this really wasn't some game or something. They were bringing me to my senses, probably for several minutes, because I wasn't reacting to any slaps on the face, nothing. After this I stood for a very long time under the sink, washing with cold water, because basically it... I wash, and it just... I feel that it's turning me off again. When they were already taking my fingerprints, I say: "Give me [something so I don't lose consciousness again]" They gave cotton with ammonia or ammonia, something like that was there, to bring me to my senses. And I stood and said: "No, give me the bottle with this solution, because the cotton doesn't help me." That is, I don't react to cotton anymore, that's it. I don't remember how they sent me to the shower. I went to the shower and I said: "Please turn on cold water for me." Because I understand that if there's warm water now, I'll turn off completely. I don't remember the moment how I got dressed from that shower, how I walked from the shower, I don't remember some moments at all. I remember that when the door to the cell opens, they gave me some things and a mattress, pillow, that is, such things. The cell opens, I enter the cell, and there were 2 people there. I just went to the bed, threw things on the bed like this and slid down the wall. After [all] this, when I just slid down, you know, I sat in such a bit of stupor, pulled my legs to my chest like this and hugged them like this and, you know, like crazy people sometimes sit, rock, and I'm sitting like this and saying: "Nothing terrible, this will all pass, everything's normal, calm down. Well it happened, everything's good. This will all end." The girl who was sitting next to me, she was really in shock, she's sitting like this: "Well, that's it, calm down, everything's good, quiet, don't cry please, everything will be normal." Tears are rolling by themselves already, I just don't control them at all anymore. The woman who was with me in the village then and who they brought [together with me], she was in shock. She didn't know at all what happened to me. Because we were traveling, we were, everything was good with us. I was still calming her then, said: "That's it, don't worry, everything will be good." I was constantly cheering her up. And here she sees me in such a state, and my state was in general... After some time we talked about what happened in general, how everyone reacted then. And the girl who was with me at that moment, she says: "You know, you just didn't see yourself from the side. You came in like in the horror movie 'The Ring' –– no, not 'The Ring,' I don't remember which horror movie, hair like this on a girl's face, she comes in in a white robe. –– You came in the same state, just the clothes were different." When I was in the shower, I let my hair down, it's long, wet, black. She says: "When I see, you come in, and this hair so disheveled, you're all wet. I looked at your face, I didn't know how to react, what to do, but I understood perfectly that I need to calm you down now." And I'm sitting and saying: "No, don't touch me, everything's normal, this will all end, this is just... don't talk to me. I don't need anything, everything's normal." And after this there was such a state... This isn't normal, but a person just doesn't react differently. Well, a normal person won't say that yes, everything's good, sort of be in a normal mood. I then just closed in on myself. This all was, all... I already saw how much these people tell, how good they are and what a humane society they are. Thanks to them enormously for this (editor's note: at this moment connection dropped, she's talking about the girls who were with Victoria in the same cell), I talked with them after this. They say: "We'll tell the doctor now that you feel bad." I say: "No, no need, there's no point in this, because it might be even worse" How do I know how they'll react to all this? There was a moment when I lost consciousness, the girl ran, knocked on the door: "She's losing consciousness, she feels bad!" Then they came and said: "Well, nothing terrible, we can treat her. There are two ways: either a doctor will come, give a shot, but this isn't guaranteed, or the guys will come" – like there was a hint about the taser. That is, like "we'll cheer her up, everything will be good." I say – there's no point in saying that you feel bad.

КА: Because it will be even worse.

ВА: Because there was such a probability, yes, that it might be even worse. At that moment I had such a desire to not go anywhere at all, not communicate with anyone, not hear anyone anything, not listen to anything at all, not see anyone anything. I understood that this couldn't be, at that moment I did everything possible to just not attract attention.

КА: You lost consciousness not only on that day when there was this absolutely inhuman intake, but also later, as I understood, this wasn't one day?

ВА: During, probably, a week I lost consciousness three times a day. This was, how to tell you... when I got up. When I could sit, and I got up, stood up sharply, there was already dizziness, I could already lose consciousness. But mainly this was in the morning when I got up from bed. This was in the morning or afternoon, when I was sitting and we needed to quickly line up, this was then. After some time all this repeated. Then the girl who was with me, she says: "No, something needs to be done about this." I say: "Listen, this will all pass, whatever happens, they won't do anything good for me. I don't even want to ask them for any help."

КА: You said that when you realized what Russians are and what it's like to be in captivity with them, you decided to just be quieter than water, lower than grass. How did you try to do this, how did you try to survive in captivity?

ВА: The first time was very difficult. Very difficult morally, psychologically, when you feel yourself... Well how to explain properly... Not only did they not consider us as people anyway, they told us this directly. Plus, there was something from their side, you feel... Let them be behind the door, but they still came up and talked, they were interested in who you are, what you are, they were interested in talking, because conversations with the investigator – that's one thing, but there were employees who watched us, who opened doors, they didn't know who you are, what you are, they were interested. So they came and also tried to somehow talk. I tried not to talk with these people. I didn't want to make contact with them, they were unpleasant to me, because they told, constantly threatened that they would cut [me] bald. These threats were for about a month and a half, probably, almost daily. You already feel bad, you already feel difficult, because they took you, you don't know how long you'll be here. They tell you: "We'll release you soon, that's it, you'll go home," – and you're still here. And daily these, constant were... The first month was difficult for me, I didn't want to sing their songs that they forced us to sing. They forced us to sing the anthem. There was such a situation when they didn't like how you sing the anthem, you had to stand and sing it until they liked it, until they said enough. This could be 2-3 times, or it could be 10 times. They turned on, there was a playlist, songs were downloaded, and they were different. These were songs of military character, and about their president, these were songs about war. Some songs we had to learn and sing them. But they also checked whether we know the text of the song, whether we constantly sing from sheets on which the song text was printed, whether we learned the song at all. They checked everyone differently. They checked the anthem with me, whether I sing it correctly. There were moments when they brought out to the corridor, there was some check or something. They asked right in the corridor line by line or two from the song from each person, each person had to tell all this separately. And God forbid you mess up somewhere – they could beat you. Different things happened. It was very difficult morally, psychologically, when you hear what's happening in the corridor. And considering the experience I had, my consciousness, it projected all this onto me and psychologically, morally this pressed very strongly. I had such moments when I just hear what's happening in the corridor (editor's note: she's talking about Victoria hearing sounds of beatings of other Ukrainian prisoners in the corridors, mainly men), and I already have trembling through my body. I just raise my hand, put it forward and see that the hand just shakes by itself, that's it. And this state lasted very long with me. No matter how I tried, whatever I tried to do, I shook like this, specifically. The girl who [was in the same cell] with me, she says: "Calm down, you know they won't do this to you anymore." I tell her: "There's no guarantee of this." There was a moment when they forced us, if we didn't want to do something, to run through the corridor for time either with a mattress or without a mattress, but mainly this was with a mattress. What this means, with a mattress: we had mattresses that were made, the bed was made, everything was normal. We needed to roll this mattress into such a tube and in 10 seconds run out to the corridor to a certain place, put the mattress in a pile and line up, stand in formation. And all this needed to be done for time. There were moments when we didn't make it. Don't make it – one more time. This happened with us, about twenty minutes we could run like this. The girl, she declared a hunger strike, because she didn't want to eat, we ran with mattresses. They said: "You'll stay without food because of her." I say: "Well let it be, well okay." They threatened me that they wouldn't give food to the whole corridor, to all other prisoners. We understand that they can't do this, because we signed receipts that they feed us here three times, that we have no complaints, that no physical force was used on us, no special means. But it was also, you know, humiliating even that after several days or about a week, no, probably about five days, they brought us out and in a certain room we undressed, [Russian penitentiary officers] filmed video and showed on the body that they didn't beat us. And if we had some bruises, scrapes remaining, then we said where we got them, that this was before arrival at the pre-trial detention center. On video we said that they feed us here, they treat us well, that no physical force and special means are used on us, that we have everything, we're provided with everything. And when the girl-doctor who was there saw some parts of my body... they weren't just in bruises, this was just a solid hematoma, she says: "And what's this? And where's this?" And I say: "Here." And she became uncomfortable, psychologically you can see that it's unpleasant for the person. She, you know, pursed her lips like this, I'm standing, tears just flow like a river. She says: "You understand that we need to film video, calm down." We filmed video, filmed, everything's good, everything's normal sort of. After this, I say: "I won't go to them for any help at all for anything in principle"

КА: And can I ask a question? When they filmed this video, did men film you?

ВА: No. Men left, we had a woman. But then they filmed this video, and naturally, men saw this video later.

КА: During all this time after the corridor, in moments when you didn't make it with these mattresses or when you fainted, was physical force still used on you? ВА: No. There was a moment when we refused to do something, they could physically... apply some kind of influence on the men. And they told us: "We can't even touch you with a finger, but we can make you do physical exercise." We could run along the corridor, do some exercises. And it didn't matter whether you could do it or not, you're already falling, they say: "Get up, do it. Come on, what are you, a rag?" They called us names, there were different things. There was a moment when they forced us to shout "Glory to Russia" and when we said this, but we said it not loudly, not the way they wanted us to shout it. We were supposed to praise, speak with such enthusiasm. But everyone understood perfectly well, what enthusiasm, well what are you talking about, well I mean? Some kind of moment came when I stood up and said that I wouldn't do this. And the girl who was [nearby], she sat on the floor and said: "I won't do this." We simply refused to do it and said: "We won't do this anymore." We understood that anything could happen, but we said: "Do what you want. Beat us, use your stun guns, clubs or whatever else you want, we don't care, but we won't do this." We understood that the men who were in the cells, they heard all this. Because through the cell, through the corridor there was luna [editor's note: Ukrainian word meaning echo] going, it was very loud. The girl who was [next to me], she [ended up in this pre-trial detention center] a little earlier than me, they took her, she says: "You know, we will complain." Once a week a prosecutor came, a civilian prosecutor who checked how [Ukrainian prisoners] were being held, whether everything was in the cell, whether they were being beaten. We understood that if we complained, the prosecutor would give them some kind of reprimand, but we understood that after that it could be much worse. But, on the other hand, constant complaints weren't needed by them either, because there could be some problem. But we said: "We don't care, do what you want, we won't do this, we will complain." They said: "To whom?" We understood that if we were already in the pre-trial detention center, the military police told us, then nothing should happen to us, because they sent us to the pre-trial detention center as a temporary holding place, until the moment of exchange. In essence, they threatened us that they could do a lot of things to us, but they couldn't do some things, because they understood that at any moment an order could come from above that these people were for dispatch. And when these people would be beaten, very many questions would arise. They were very worried [about this], by the way, they photographed all our bruises that were there before we arrived at the pre-trial detention center. They photographed all scars, tattoos – everything. They photographed everything so that there would be no claims against them. They said: "If a person returns from captivity and says that [they] were starved there or something else, we provide documents and say: look, such people left us or something else." That is, they made some insurance for themselves. But, what's most interesting, they didn't do this once a week, or once a month [editor's note: referring to photo/video documentation of prisoners]. They only did this when a person arrived to them. And what happened after – that's already a story that remains silent.

КА: And when you refused to shout "Glory to Russia," did you somehow prepare for this beforehand, agree with the girls?

ВА: No. No, not at all.

КА: Then how did you do it? This is very scary.

ВА: We understood that something could happen, simply when we were doing various physical exercises, the muscles in my legs were already refusing to do anything. You know, when a cramp grabs a muscle, you try to do something, ease this pain. On both my legs it wasn't just that the calves hurt below, the thigh muscles were already hurting. I'm standing and I feel small cramps going through my muscles. I simply stood up, they were forcing us, telling us to walk goose step, that is we had to be in a half-squat, hands either behind the head or behind the back, I just don't remember anymore. Before this we did something else, already simply physically, honestly, it was hard for me, I simply stood up and said: "I won't do this. And I won't shout 'Glory to Russia' either." The girl saw that I was already physically giving up, and she says: "Well what's the point for me? Why? Why should I do this?" And says: "I also won't do anything." We refused, we didn't know what the reaction would be, but, on the other hand, we understood that we were breaking their system with all this. Because they thought they would intimidate, shout somehow, yes, and we would be afraid of all this. Yes, we were afraid, because we didn't know what their reaction would be. But we understood that when we don't do what they want, and we stand up in defiance, then they didn't know how to react further. At the moment when we both said: "We won't do this," they didn't know how to react. They didn't know what to do with us.

КА: They didn't start beating you?

ВА: No. They said: "We'll do something to you there, this, that." But they didn't do anything. They tried to drag someone through the corridor, like: "Get up, do it, we'll make you, you will do this." But we had an argument: we won't do this, that's it, nothing more. They even told us: "We can't even touch you with a finger. We can't beat you." That's what they told us.

КА: After you refused to perform these humiliating exercises and shout what they were forcing you to shout, no punishment followed from them?

ВА: No. It turned out that we sang a lot after that, they tried to make us run more along the corridor, but after that nothing more. The girl simply had a condition, partly a nervous breakdown happened, and they worried that nothing would happen, God forbid we would do something to ourselves or something else. Therefore we had nothing, nothing more like that threatened us.

КА: So you refused to do this, and you were simply led to the cells or what happened right after?

ВА: Yes, we were simply led to the cell. That's it. We were led to the cell and that's it, then it was simply lights out. I'm telling you, the girl had a nervous breakdown, she refused to sleep at all, she said: "I won't even sit down. We didn't do anything, we have no charges, why is there such an attitude toward us?" There was a situation, they even came to her, brought sedatives. And it turned out, it happened that after this they came to us and asked if everything was fine. There was a moment when [we] complained to the prosecutor once. She said, this girl, I didn't say anything. Simply this girl had such an emotional state, she says: "They humiliate us here, they call us names, they can beat us." She doesn't say that they beat us, she says that they can beat us, they can apply physical force to us. After this the prosecutor, when he came weekly, he asked if everything was fine, whether they beat us, humiliate us, feed us, give us water. He asked again. You know, I also connect this a bit with the fact that there were only two or three of us in this pre-trial detention center.

КА: Girls?

ВА: Girls, yes. The rest were men. Therefore they said: "These girly hysterics of yours are the worst!"

КА: This girl who had the nervous breakdown – do you mean female prisoners of war or girls in general?

ВА: This was a corridor where there were only prisoners of war. I don't know who was [in the pre-trial detention center besides us], yes, there were other prisoners, Russians, but prisoners of war were in a separate building, in a separate corridor.

КА: You sat in the cell together, it turns out?

ВА: Yes. At the moment when this happened, we were two.

КА: As far as I remember, you spent half a year in captivity. Sometimes there were more [girls in the cell], sometimes fewer, some were released, some were brought, right?

ВА: With this girl it turned out that we were together from the very beginning. There was such that at first there was another woman who was sick. Since, I'm telling you, she had documents, she was released very quickly. There were two military women there. Then one was taken literally after two or three weeks. And another one, she stayed with us, the three of us in such composition [sat together], the three of us were released.

КА: You said before that you gave some message and sister's contacts to the woman who was sick. Did she manage to contact her?

ВА: Yes, of course. They took her, this woman, together with her husband, they were together. When they transported us in the prison van, we then sat, the three of us talked about this. While we were inside the cell, we learned the numbers [of relatives of other captured girls] to remember them. They released them, they contacted my relatives, it was from these people that my relatives learned where I was. It was these people who officially confirmed to the state structures that did all this, dealt with all this, confirmed, gave specific information. They checked them, whether it was really me, because the situation could be different. But they confirmed. They simply knew some moments that only I knew, for example, and my relatives. They told about this, it was one hundred percent confirmation, showed a photograph and everything else. They said: "Yes, it's her." It was from these people [my relatives learned] more reliably where I was and what happened to me, in what condition.

КА: What do you know about what exactly they conveyed, what they told about your condition?

ВА: Honestly, I didn't ask. The only thing, I told [her]: "What my sister asks, you tell everything. Everything she will ask, everything that will be needed, tell everything. Only tell my sister that parents shouldn't know this. If you tell, then don't inform parents." You know, very many people say: "We can't imagine." But the whole thing is that everyone will perceive all this differently. When a person gets into such a situation, only then does a person learn what they're capable of. Because now you think: "Damn, I couldn't do that, it's hard, it's this, that," – but actually you don't know how you will react in that situation. This is possibly even the difficulty for people, because they don't understand from this side how it will all be, they don't even know themselves. They only have some assumptions, but actually, when you get into such a situation, only then can you somehow determine something and understand at all.