We couldn’t stay on the sidelines — we understood that many people would suffer

НВ: Natalia Vishenkova

АП: Anna Pavlova

АП: Please introduce yourself, tell me what you do and where you live.

НВ: Hello, my name is Vishenkova Natalia, I'm a book publishing designer, I live and work in the city of Obninsk.

АП: I understand you. We got on the phone to discuss what happened with your husband. Please tell me briefly what happened and when.

НВ: On October 17th my husband stopped responding. He doesn't answer phone calls after he went to Kolotilovka to help a woman with cancer cross the border. He took a stretcher and a wheelchair. He also needed to arrange with other refugees so they could either carry or roll [her] on the wheelchair.

АП: Am I correct in understanding that your husband Alexander is involved in volunteer work?

НВ: Well, you could say that, yes, this implies providing free help to people.

АП: Can you tell me in more detail what he does, for how long and why he decided to get involved in this in the first place?

НВ: When the special military operation began on February 24th last year, my husband and I couldn't stand aside. We understood that there would be many people who would suffer from all this. They would need help. My husband is such a person who can't just sit and watch. And we made the decision that at minimum we would first take people in for temporary housing at our house, which is located near Belgorod, and somehow help with things as well. Well, basically, that's how it started. The first refugees came to us in May [20]22 and lived with us for a month. After that my husband subscribed to various chats where help was offered and where people asked for help. And people who temporarily lived in it started coming to our house. Last year these were mainly people who were going to Europe. And from the moment when the checkpoint opened in Kolotilovka, this border crossing point for passage to Ukraine, the majority, already this year all the people, mainly, with rare exception, were those refugees who wanted to return to Ukraine to their relatives.

Besides temporarily living in our house, my husband helped some of them: he met them at the station and drove them to Kolotilovka, helped grandmothers who, for example, couldn't walk, bought wheelchairs, and also bought carts. Because the crossing in Kolotilovka, there's two kilometers there, automobile passage was prohibited, you can only walk. And there's no road there, so carts were necessary to transport things.

АП: If I understood you correctly, in the beginning refugees came to you and refugees from Ukraine temporarily lived with you, and then, when Kolotilovka opened, those who were traveling from Russia, returning back to Ukraine, started staying with you, correct?

НВ: Well, let's say, mainly people came from territories that are now under Russian troops. Very many people came recently from the left bank of the Dnipro after it flooded, many lost their homes and the ability to live, and so they went to relatives. Through Europe is very long and expensive, so they chose a shorter route.

АП: You mentioned that the Kolotilovka checkpoint opened. Please tell me, when was this?

НВ: You know, I can't say the exact date...

АП: Well, approximately.

НВ: But I know that somewhere in late October - early November last year my husband got a call asking to provide overnight accommodation for a family that was planning to travel through the Kolotilovka checkpoint. We didn't even suspect or know about this yet. The first family came to us then, there were 5 people, including a small 4-month-old child. They spent the night and left. We were very worried about them, because we simply didn't know what the crossing conditions were like, how things were there. They were our first, and they drove through the checkpoint by car, you could still go by automobile then. We were informed that they were alright, they made it home.

АП: So before this there was a different border crossing, but still it was relatively not far somewhere from you?

НВ: You know, I don't know, no, before this there wasn't one. You know, in [20]22 Russian troops were still in Kharkiv Oblast, and many people, the first refugees, were traveling from Kharkiv Oblast, and then left for Europe. But when Russian troops withdrew, I don't even know if there was one at all and when this [checkpoint] opened.

АП: I understand you. Let's return to the beginning of your volunteer activities. Please tell me, why did you decide to get involved in this with your husband? I understand this was your joint decision? Why did you decide to do this, and wasn't it scary for you?

НВ: Well, you know, not scary. We weren't doing anything illegal. We had the opportunity, the resource, because we hadn't moved completely to Belgorod Oblast yet. I still live here to this day, in Kaluga Oblast. And we had space there. Especially since in connection with the combat actions, visits, for example, of my husband's children and grandchildren, – they stopped coming. Well, that is, there was space, a house where they [refugees] could live, and a feeling of empathy, compassion, a feeling that you want to help, do something.

АП: How did your close ones, your friends react to your initiative? Was there any negativity or on the contrary, maybe they supported you?

НВ: You know, when last summer I asked for the first time to collect things for refugees, my friends didn't refuse me. They collected what they could. I didn't encounter negativity toward myself. We told everyone about this, that we were helping.

АП: You said that already in spring [20]22 you had the first family. Do you remember that meeting, what it was like to face people from Ukraine?

НВ: Yes, very well. The thing is, we had contacts with this family through Portugal. My husband's eldest son, he went with his family to vacation in Portugal, and his friends... It's clear that everyone was discussing what was happening. I don't even know, maybe he told them that his father wanted to help refugees. They said they had a good close acquaintance who went from Kyiv to visit her acquaintances in Kharkiv Oblast, and on the 24th, when Russian troops came through, she found herself practically on the frontline. And they gave [us] the phone number, [saying] that she was living with acquaintances, and they wanted to leave for Russia, but simply didn't know how and where and what. There apparently the house had already been destroyed. And when they called Sasha, my husband, he said: "Of course, let them come." We initially thought it would be comfortable for us if about 8 people lived [with us], but in the end 13 arrived. This young woman and three more families. There were two teenagers and a six-year-old girl. There were two farmer families, they were very worried: they had abandoned a big farm, they had 80 pigs there. The man there, of course, was in complete tragedy. They lived with us for almost a month, and then decided to leave for Europe after all. They hoped that maybe they would return quickly, but in the end decided to leave for Europe, especially since they were giving financial aid to refugees there at that time. They left.

АП: What was this meeting like? Because it seems to me, it's not always easy to encounter...

НВ: You know, well, how can I tell you? The first meeting... They lived two months in a basement without electricity, and when they came into our house, they say: "Do you have electricity?" I say: "Of course." And they say: "Excuse us, we just got out of the habit of having electricity." Then I told them: "Just excuse me, we only have one wardrobe for clothes here, well, there's no space." And they say: "And you know, what clothes? We don't have clothes. Here we each have a small bag." Well, the only thing they brought with them, they had slaughtered a pig and brought meat with them and...

АП: Seriously? My goodness.

НВ: Yes, they brought meat with them so they'd have something to eat. So yes, such a meeting was unforgettable.

АП: Do you remember your feelings then?

НВ: Oh... I felt very sorry for the children, sorry for this man who, you know, as they say, – a person's face was like black. That is, such a heavy, devastated look. A six-year-old girl, we played with her, and I somehow asked, I say: "Were you already going to school?" – she [says]: "No, there were development classes. And anyway, in three days the war will end, and I'll go to school." And honestly, I could barely hold back tears so as not to burst out crying and frighten her.

АП: Over all this time that you've been helping refugees, how many people have passed through you? Surely there were other such memorable stories, if I may say so. Can you tell something about this? From my own experience as a volunteer I know very well that such stories always exist.

НВ: Yes, of course. Of course, my husband has more stories, because I was there in visits. In terms of number of people, my husband counted at first, then stopped. Approximately, other publications have written, somewhere around 900. Probably somewhere around a thousand.

АП: These are people who actually lived with you, or everyone you helped in general?

НВ: Well, you know, maybe not only lived. Someone my husband, for example, immediately, this past year met and immediately drove to Kolotilovka. It's hard here, I'm saying, we stopped counting, because there were very many. Someone might spend one night, someone sometimes lived several days. Well, I'm saying, in [20]22 when people were leaving for Europe, there they mainly lived for however many days, waiting for buses. They filled buses, and then sent them off.

From such stories... Now I'll [tell] a couple. Once my husband transported a severely wounded person. A young man, he was leaving Kharkiv Oblast with his girlfriend. And he was caught in shelling. The girlfriend died, he ended up with one leg [amputated] to the thigh, probably, I don't remember now. The second one was also damaged. They sent him from Moscow, I think, then to Helsinki or something, if I'm not mistaken. I think yes, to Finland. When my husband brought him, I first called my sister with her husband to carry him into our house on a blanket. Then I called friends to carry him out. Such a heavy story, of course. It was the first time I saw a person who suffered in war, and so severely. But he held up like a hero, his mother too.

So, what other story should I remember? I remember very well the last story that happened. A family with seven children lived with us for a month. Actually eight, eight children, it's just the eldest, – honestly, I don't remember if they have an eldest son or daughter, she already lives separately from them somewhere, – probably in Ukraine, I can't say exactly. Anyway, the family and seven children, they lived with us for a whole month, because the parents couldn't decide what to do. The thing is that the wife of this family, the mother of the family, she has no relatives, and her husband, I think, only has an elderly mother or grandmother in Kherson. Honestly, I never asked completely about this grandmother. But the eldest daughter said they don't want to go to Kherson, because they're shelling there. And there's the eldest girl, she's about 14, and the youngest was, I think, 8 months old. He was just starting to walk little by little, such a good little fellow. They lived with us for a whole month, they really liked it. It even seems to me they would have wanted to stay, but we, of course, didn't have such resources to keep them. They still left for Ukraine to Kyiv, as far as I remember.

So, for completeness I can probably tell one more story. You know, it's such a small one, but somehow also very touching. There was a young man, he was traveling with a group, and it happened that the group fell apart. Part of the people, I think his friend with his mother, for some reason they weren't let through. They were traveling from the left side of the Dnipro, just when many were leaving, when the left bank of the Dnipro flooded. And he stayed with us for several more days, helped my husband a lot. By the way, I'll also tell this story about help. My husband started building a mini-hotel, but everything remained at the basement level for now. And this guy helped a lot. And he kept waiting that maybe his friend would come. But the other part of the group, he didn't want to go with them. There were people barely known to him, just apparently some neighbors. I somehow went with him, he needed to buy cigarettes. And we talked, and it turned out he was an orphan. I ask: "Where will you go, do you have relatives, friends?" – he says: "I'll go where there's work. I have nobody except a younger sister who stayed there on the left..." Oh, where were they from? Or from Donetsk Oblast? You know, I don't remember. "But she," he says, "is younger than me, and she lives there somewhere with friends, with acquaintances." And you know, when a person has nobody, especially when this kind of thing happens, it seems to me it's very hard.

Well, and such a general story overall about our refugees, about my husband. My husband generally believes that to have fewer various thoughts creeping into your head, you need to work a lot. And he always involved all the refugees in work. The most hardworking are grandmothers, they weeded our whole vegetable garden for us. He also had everyone cutting apples and making dried fruit, drying apples. Then he put all this in little bags and gave these same bags to the refugees so they could take them on the road, to snack instead of candies. That is, he always tried to involve everyone. Because when, – he says, – a person sits, does nothing, he has, understandably, a difficult situation, such grief, he starts to sink deeper, and it's harder for him himself. That is, he always strived so that... When people came to us, we met them, always tried to feed them, but then everyone was on self-service. Cook, clean up – this was all on them, and it seems to me this had a very beneficial effect. When you do something, you're busy. Well, that's the story.

АП: So many people passed through you – surely there were difficult conversations, heavy conversations. Did you encounter such things?

НВ: You know, there were. But my husband is a very sociable person. He even said: "You know, at first I talked a lot, asked questions, but then I stopped." That is, even for him it was very hard to discuss certain topics, what was happening to people. We didn't ask. But if people told us themselves, we, of course, listened. There were heavy stories. Should I tell a couple of such [stories]?

АП: You can tell them if you're ready, yes.

НВ: Well, if I remember, because so many people passed through. Well, for example, one story was. There was a family, husband and wife and two children. And the husband kept saying: "You know, the most terrible thing was when an explosion happened and my son screamed. And I was running to him and didn't know what was wrong with him, because I understood that the explosion happened, well, about 50 meters, no further, from my son." He says: "I've never heard a more terrible scream." Well, thank God, everything was fine with the boy. People also told how they saw how they shot a boat on the Dnipro with refugees. This, I think, is a well-known story, it was covered in the media.

АП: Did you encounter people asking you any questions in connection with you being from Russia, that you're in Russia? Were there any questions like why we, what did we do to you, something like that?

НВ: We somehow discussed this in general, but specifically to us, probably there weren't such questions. The only thing, when there were the first refugees, they were somehow more wary. Like this situation between eastern and western Ukraine. They [said]: "In the west they somehow didn't receive us very well." And my husband and I traveled to Ukraine, we say: "What was happening there?" But [they] didn't remember anything serious like that. They were with us just when it was May 9th. And my husband and I said that, you know, May 8th can also be celebrated, because the eighth was the signing [of the act of Germany's capitulation on May 8, 1945]. And when it was the ninth, they also celebrated, they say: "Will you be with us?" – we say: "Of course, we will."

АП: The refugees celebrated?

НВ: Yes, May 9th. Well, how they celebrated – it was just a regular dinner, just poured something to drink and drank to May 9th.

АП: How was this, how did you explain this to each other? You celebrated the victory in that war there and remembered your grandmothers and grandfathers, or what was it?

НВ: No-no-no, I maybe said it too loudly. Actually it was just a toast to May 9th, nothing more. No, I somehow said it too loudly about celebrating. We just drank to that victory.

АП: Interesting. But in general were there any conversations about the war, about expectations among refugees, or were people just tired already?

НВ: There were conversations, everyone still tried to understand why all this started and because of what. Such conversations like that. You know, as one refugee woman said: "So who should we believe?" – I told her: "You know, believe your own eyes and listen not to one radio, but two-three sources. If what you saw with your own eyes coincides with this, then you can believe it."

АП: I understand you. Am I correct in understanding that until recently people lived in this house? Or they stopped coming, and there were only those who traveled through the checkpoint, and your husband helped them?

НВ: This past year with rare exception, those people lived [there] who were planning to travel through the checkpoint. Some lived longer, because in summer there was terrible heat. For example, one family lived with us for two weeks, actually no, probably more, maybe three. Because they came by car, cars were banned from going through. They came to us, my husband invited them to live [there] hoping that maybe the situation would change. And the husband has a sick heart. In the end after a week they had to call an ambulance for him, and he lay in the hospital for a month. Then they waited out this terrible heat, because 37 degrees [Celsius], you understand, walking two kilometers on foot for a person with a sick heart is unrealistic. They, for example, were delayed. Sometimes people came just for the night. They arrive late in the evening, going to Kolotilovka at night makes no sense, there's nowhere to sleep there. They, for example, spend the night, and in the morning my husband drives them. Sometimes [they live] a couple-three days, if it's some elderly grandmother, and she needs to be transported by wheelchair and someone needs to be found who will transport her.

АП: Am I correct in understanding that this is a country house in a village, in some settlement, that is, not in the city itself?

НВ: Yes.

АП: How did your neighbors relate to what was happening, to the fact that many refugees were living there, that you essentially had such a hotel? Was there any support or the opposite?

НВ: Nearby neighbors related normally. But one neighbor... We have Gremyachy hamlet, it's divided into two parts. Gremyachy-1 hamlet, there's a bigger settlement, many houses there, and we have Gremyachy-2 hamlet, and there are only three houses there. And, I think, from Gremyachy-1 hamlet, I understood, there some neighbor, he apparently gave rides to some of the refugees – maybe they asked to be driven to town. And he, I think, called the police to check us, what was happening at our place.

АП: And how did all this end?

НВ: Nothing, they just came and talked with my husband and that's all, it ended in nothing. Well, like they came.

АП: Were there besides this any attempts to limit your activities, or any pressure from people or from the state?

НВ: In Kolotilovka my husband had a small conflict when he tried to protest the conditions for refugees when crossing Kolotilovka. There's a checkpoint where border guards sit, and nearby there's like a bus parking area, such a paved area, not very big, and without a canopy. And there are no benches, nothing: that is, either sit in the car in the stuffiness, or stand on your feet. And we once met a girl with a small child. We brought refugees, the refugees passed through, and suddenly a girl with a small child is walking toward us. She had stood there in the heat for a couple hours, they didn't let her through: there were problems with documents. And my husband is such [a person], he's for people. In general, the border guards didn't like how he talked to them. They later called him for a conversation, then they gave him a fine for violating the border zone.

АП: Wow, can you tell me more about this in detail, please?

НВ: The conversation was in my presence. Honestly, with this fine I don't even remember after what this was. Probably yes, after this story, because Sasha was really, you could say, demanding. First he wanted this woman to be let through. They told him: "You're just a driver, take her away, and that's all. Why are you making demands here?"

АП: Russian border guards said this?

НВ: Yes, representatives, some commander of theirs there. And then they called him to court and punished him administratively, gave him a fine, allegedly he violated the border zone. But after this whole story, by the way, they allocated a different place for those who were waiting their turn. In the village of Kolotilovka itself they made [one]. There's such a big parking area with benches, it was there, they just now started having people wait there. There are benches, canopies, a store nearby. That is, more comfortable conditions.

АП: So still his conversation, it had meaning?

НВ: Yes, in the end yes.

[...]

АП: We stopped at the fact that in Kolotilovka they made, improved the waiting conditions for refugees. You, I understand, visited Kolotilovka many times. How does this village live in general, how do people react to what's happening, and what's happening there in general?

НВ: Honestly, I was only there twice. How do people react? Let's say, at some point the administration even provided us with an empty house, and the carts that my husband bought for refugees, we could leave them there so we didn't have to transport them every time. Honestly, I don't know, because my husband traveled there all the time, and I didn't communicate with the locals. So I can't tell you.

АП: If I understood correctly, your husband devoted practically all his time to volunteer work. Is this so, and how did he manage this? Did he work somewhere or did he combine this with work, how was all this arranged?

НВ: He, actually, as he said: "I'm already a pensioner." He had small part-time jobs. And then, you know, he has a lot of energy. He still made some days off for himself, well, conditionally off days. He was involved in construction of our future hotel, finishing the basement. Plus we have a bathhouse there, and he was finishing the second floor so that...

АП: This is all near your house?

НВ: Yes-yes, the thing is we have two plots there, on one plot is the house, and on the other plot we have the bathhouse and the future mini-hotel. Plus, I'm saying, refugees also helped him do this. He's one of those people who can work very-very much.

АП: What did he do before retirement? What kind of person is he in general? In all the interviews I've seen, relatively little is told about him as a person. Can we fill this gap?

НВ: Now, just a moment, I'll answer here. We met in such a way that he was involved in supplying educational literature on foreign languages. I work at a publishing house that produces English textbooks, he was a major supplier, distributor. Plus he had a small bookstore where he sold everything related to textbooks and manuals, and literature, – everything necessary for preparation, for studying foreign languages. That's what he did. And before that he worked at school.

АП: Wow, he's a teacher?

НВ: And his education, he studied at Bauman [Moscow State Technical University], he's a rocket engineer.

АП: My goodness. That is, he could have been mobilized in principle, or not?

НВ: Purely theoretically, maybe he could have, if the age [allowed], but purely practically... The thing is, as he told me, in his third year he became a pacifist and completely became disillusioned with the profession he chose. He finished studying already, because he needed to get a diploma. And after studies he, of course, worked three years at a design bureau, but this was mainly farm work.

АП: But when mobilization began, were there fears that they might conscript him or not anymore?

НВ: No-no, he's [born in 19]62.

АП: I understand you. You said in the beginning that you lived separately for some time, that is, you lived in your city, and your husband already lived in the house where the refugees [stayed].

НВ: Well, we [traveled] back and forth.

АП: Am I correct in understanding that you were supposed to move there? That is, before the war you planned to move to Belgorod?

НВ: This was already discussed when my husband bought [the plot], and it became clear that he felt wonderful there. In general, I also like the city of Belgorod.

АП: Why did you decide to live specifically there?

НВ: Because my husband, he was generally born in Belgorod Oblast, he liked those lands, and also those places where we bought the house, there his close friend also has a plot. We often came there to visit, and my husband really liked that place, that people there don't have fences, a very beautiful place. You could buy a large plot of land. He aspired to go there.

АП: But at the same time, judging by what you're telling, it turned out that not all people there are like that, sharing your views? Judging by the fact that some person called the police.

НВ: This person, it seems to me, he's not from our close [neighbors]. He said "neighbor", but some neighbor, I honestly don't even [know]... Apparently from another settlement, I can't say.

On the contrary, there's an eco-settlement near us, and people aspired to go there who were for ecology, who wanted to develop [this place]. For example, our neighbors, they have, I think, 47 varieties of trees. They plant them. Then with his friend they planted a big avenue, it's already 15 years old, of oaks and pines. My husband shared all this. He liked and likes to work on the land, to improve nature. He planted many trees. And I together with him.

АП: You started telling about the hotel. Am I correct in understanding that this was supposed to be a hotel also for refugees, so you could accommodate more people, or not?

НВ: No, initially this was a way to earn money. My husband is generally a very hospitable person. Well, it's small like that, we thought that, well, maybe, you know, when people there, for example, celebrate some anniversaries, weddings. There would be several rooms, and people could come in groups. No, initially about refugees, we didn't think that all this would happen, that all this would be.

АП: You said that there was no pressure, except for this incident with police and the incident at the border, at the checkpoint. Let's return still to what happened and what became the reason for our conversation. Can you tell me about this in more detail and tell me what is known now and what is happening now in general?

НВ: Well, you know, let me [speak] in general terms, I won't go into specifics. My husband disappeared on the 17th.

АП: How did you find out about this?

НВ: He stopped responding. And our mutual acquaintance called us, who says that the grandmother's relatives already reported that she had crossed – she was just helping this grandmother – [but] Sasha [still] doesn't answer the phone. We called him – he's [usually] always in contact. We call each other twice a day, this is 100 percent. If once a day, then he always, if he can't talk, he always wrote me something, like "Okay."

АП: And you don't live there now, right? You live in Kaluga Oblast?

НВ: No, [not there]. Then we searched for him everywhere, I filed a report with police, then came on the 20th and drove around [all the places where he could be]. We thought that maybe someone detained him, we looked for him in police stations, I went to the FSB, because border guards are handled by the FSB. On the 20th I drove around the district, approximately where, where they could have taken him, but didn't find him. On the evening of the 20th I returned to our house, and there were many armed people, my husband. [There were] police representatives, as I understood, since they conducted a search, and a protocol was compiled, which I didn't see, which they didn't give me. This protocol disappeared.

АП: How did you know it was compiled?

НВ: Because I was told about this. They spoke to me quite rudely, the only thing we discussed [was this compilation of the protocol]. I tried to ask other questions, they told me: "Shut up, or we'll stop communicating with you at all now."

АП: But you saw this protocol?

НВ: No, I didn't see this protocol. They said they gave it to my husband. At that moment a refugee was living with us, my husband said: "I gave it to him." The refugee went, says: "No, everything is dumped there, where I put it, on the table, it's not there," – and we didn't find it, we later turned everything upside down, it wasn't there. Then they took my husband away. Here I'm getting confused with dates, after how many days we found out that he's in a temporary detention facility on an administrative case. That from the 21st they put him [in] for 10 days on an administrative article.

АП: In what place, in what city?

НВ: In Belgorod. So, on the 31st he was released, and on the 1st they called him for interrogation on a criminal case, the very one for which there was a search and protocol that they compiled. He was detained, and now he's in a pre-trial detention center. A criminal case was opened under article 222.1.

АП: What kind of article is this?

НВ: This is an article about illegal storage of weapons, I think so. But you should better look it up on the internet.

АП: Yes, of course. Please tell me how you first saw him when you came home, and what happened. Can you tell me about this in more detail?

НВ: Oh... Well, we hugged, we talked little. He only said that I should definitely stay somewhere with friends or acquaintances, not stay alone. And, basically, then they took him away.

АП: What condition was he in?

НВ: Well, not very good. Then our tenant told me that when Sasha was taking off his shirt, he had bruises.

АП: In the sense, the tenant saw this?

НВ: Yes. And then I saw him in court, he also had his whole back [covered] in bruises. But I don't know if I should write about this, although, of course...

АП: Am I correct in understanding that there [at home] were police or someone else? Were there FSB representatives there?

НВ: Yes, there were someone else: people in military uniform, bearded.

АП: In military uniform?

НВ: Yes.

АП: Am I correct in understanding that when you arrived, they were already at home?

НВ: Yes-yes, the search was already finished, they, as I understand, were already getting ready to leave.

АП: Did they take anything from you as a result of the search?

НВ: Well, from what I know for sure, they took the laptop.

АП: You said that initially there was some administrative case. What was he accused of?

НВ: He was accused of evading medical examination.

АП: Did the refugee who lived with you tell you anything about what he saw when they came, what was happening in the house?

НВ: Military people came with Sasha, then they took them, brought them to the police station, and then came back together with police and with witnesses.

АП: This was when you were already [there]?

НВ: This was all before me, I wasn't there at that moment. When I arrived, there were already these people, and the search was already finished. And my husband was with things: he had changed clothes, washed.

АП: You didn't manage to talk to him about anything, about what was happening?

НВ: You know, I, honestly, was in such shock that properly no.

АП: What were you thinking at that moment when you arrived?

НВ: At first I was glad that he was found, that he was whole. Whole, walking, talking. Well, and there was fear, of course, because when people walk around with machine guns, and, let's say, shout at you, it's somehow not very pleasant.

АП: What did they shout at you?

НВ: That I should ask fewer questions. Well, they shouted loudly at me like that, as they say, barked that there's no point in asking so many questions here.

АП: Were there many of them?

НВ: Many.

АП: Ten people, fewer, do you have any assumptions?

НВ: You know, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, well, around 10 people, probably, yes.

АП: They didn't show you any documents, nothing?

НВ: No-no. I'm saying, after they barked at me, I don't even remember if we talked about the protocol before this or after this. And you know, such numbness came over me.

АП: What did you do in the following days?

НВ: The following days... The thing is, on the 20th before my arrival at the house I managed to conclude a contract with a lawyer. In theory, when everything goes according to law, when everything is strict, they communicate with you normally as with a citizen, then you could call a lawyer, – though we have very bad connection in that place. Well, at minimum, it was possible to somehow do this. And the lawyer and I, we just started searching where Sasha could have been placed. The lawyer found that he was in the temporary detention facility, then we filed a complaint so that... This is, you know, what it's called, when... Like an appeal, but the lawyer explained to me that since the case is administrative, this complaint is about review...

АП: Of the case decision?

НВ: Well... Well, to review his this detention, what they assigned him there, whether it's lawful, unlawful. I saw him then already at this trial. I think this was on the 26th. And then the lawyer talked to him. The judge left everything in force, these ten days. Well, we saw each other, talked, hugged.

АП: You understood that you needed to conclude an agreement with a lawyer because you already had assumptions that he didn't just disappear?

НВ: Yes. I immediately, on the 19th, filed a report about my husband's disappearance with police of this Krasnoyaruzhsky district. And then, [earlier] he [husband] told me that allegedly they took him for some conversations. That is, we thought that like last time, they [took] him for a conversation. But the thing is, that time the conversation was several hours – maybe three, I don't remember exactly now. He [after the conversation] came out, called. But here there were no calls, no messages. By our law they generally have the right to detain for 48 hours, and at the same time, I think, they should inform relatives. I'm not strong in laws, but, I think, this should be so according to law. АП: But am I correct in understanding that for the previous conversation he was summoned by an official letter?

НВ: No-no-no, it was the same way there too. I think he came to Kolotilovka, and they asked him to come through.

АП: Directly from there, from the checkpoint?

НВ: Yes, I think something like that.

АП: And what did they tell him then, the first time?

НВ: Oh, you know, I don't know, Anna. I'm telling you from memory, I wasn't there at that moment.

АП: So he didn't share his impressions with you?

НВ: He did share, but I don't remember.

АП: I understand you. You stopped at the point where you called the lawyer, after your husband was detained.

НВ: After the search, yes. I stopped at an acquaintance's place, called [the lawyer], told [him] the circumstances of the case. And since we already had an agreement concluded, and there was at least some understanding here, we immediately got involved in searching for him. [He] drove to various police departments, we filed applications everywhere: to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and to the Investigative Committee, and appealed to prosecutors' offices in different districts. We didn't know which prosecutor's office it would be, where they could open some kind of case against him and what kind of case.

АП: Do you have any contact with your husband now? Did you manage to communicate with him after the detention, after they took him away, and are you communicating somehow now?

НВ: He's in a pre-trial detention center, so his son [communicates]. It was unclear - whether they would detain him administratively again, because there was an option that they would make it administrative for him again. And as soon as we understood that he was in a pre-trial detention center, the older son wrote a letter faster than me, and the father answered him. And also the lawyer went there for a meeting, to make sure how he is, what he is, in what condition.

АП: What does he say, what does he write?

НВ: He writes that an investigator came to him with a lawyer regarding this criminal case that was opened against him. Well, and plus, that our lawyer came, this happened on the same day. He hasn't answered my letter yet. I wrote later, and apparently got into...

Chester! - sorry, I have a cat here. He doesn't like that I'm not paying attention to him.

АП: Cats are sacred, of course. You said that the case is about illegal weapons storage - did they really confiscate something from him or is this some kind of planted weapon, or how are things generally?

НВ: In the description it says, grenade and detonators. Detonator-1 and detonator-2, I'm saying this conditionally, they are somehow different.

АП: Were they really found at home?

НВ: I don't know, but I have big doubts about the grenade. I think they planted it on him. The thing is, we have this hamlet Gremyachy... My husband is very interested in history. And this place during the Great Patriotic War changed hands eight times. When my husband was developing the plot, he was making lawns, hills, dug a pool, a playground for sports games, and he found many various artifacts, items from the Great Patriotic War. Including shrapnel, and maybe, something like that. I don't understand, but since my husband has a certain education, he, of course, understands all this. He even wanted to make a museum. We have there near the fence a pierced helmet, I think German, if I'm not lying, some shrapnel, wire - and he showed how German differs from Soviet. That is, a lot of things were dug up from the ground there.

АП: So you think that he could have found something there?

НВ: Possibly. But, you know, considering that people lived in our house all the time, and recently children lived there, he wouldn't have left something dangerous.

АП: In your opinion, what is the reason for what happened?

НВ: Possibly, my husband's excessive activity in the Kolotilovka area, that he always wanted improvements. And, I think, he had a conflict the last time with those people who controlled the queue at Kolotilovka. The people there changed [after the conflict]. Possibly [Alexander was detained] because of this, I don't know.

АП: And what was this conflict about?

НВ: There was a situation when on some day there were so many people that 200 people couldn't pass that day. I don't know how many passed. And even some spent the night on the bench there. They froze, there were just frosts. And it turned out that they also started selling this queue for money.

АП: And when was this approximately?

НВ: Well, this was... If he disappeared on October 17, then early October. And, I think, my husband voiced this...

АП: That they started selling?

НВ: Yes-yes-yes.

АП: And how, who did he tell about this?

НВ: He gave an interview to some newspaper, I think.

АП: Specifically about selling places?

НВ: Well yes, among other things.

АП: You said that the people who control everything changed. Do you mean checkpoint employees, or some other people?

НВ: No, at first local residents controlled this area and queue, and now - territorial defense.

АП: Russian territorial defense in the sense?

НВ: Well, I don't know. Territorial defense now in Belgorod Oblast, they guard bridges there, as I understand, and someone else there...

АП: And were these the people who sold places, or what?

НВ: No, before this other people were selling, and then these ones changed. I understood that with them Sasha also had something that didn't work out. They simply changed them literally before all this happened with my husband. And yes, they also had some kind of conflict there, they wouldn't let him through. I don't know the details. Allegedly he was photographing something there. And he photographed this very area itself, and from far away. You can just see the size of the area, that cars are standing there - that is, you can't really see anything special. Well, little houses. It's located somewhere 800 meters from the checkpoint itself, that is, the checkpoint is in the distance. It's clear that you can't photograph there.

АП: What is your plan of action now, what do you plan to do?

НВ: Well, you know, we're monitoring the development of the situation for now. We don't have everything determined with lawyers yet, because the lawyer who dealt with and searched for my husband on the administrative case we paid very expensively. At that time it was all justified, I don't know about further. We're still in the situation of developing strategy, let's say, and understanding how we will work further. Either we will work with an appointed lawyer, or we'll still conclude a contract with some external lawyer.

АП: Is there understanding of when the next hearing will be or something else, some movements on the case?

НВ: No, not yet, I don't know yet.

АП: Am I correct in understanding that communication for you now is possible only through a lawyer and through correspondence?

НВ: Through correspondence, plus I sent an application by mail for visits.

АП: I understand you. At the moment your husband is accused specifically in the weapons storage case?

НВ: Yes, this case is now opened.

АП: In connection with everything happening, what do you plan to do about the refugees? If I understood correctly, someone continues to live in the house?

НВ: No, now there's no one, the last refugee left. Honestly, I don't know yet. Neighbors are helping. We have cats living there, they will come to feed the cats, well and heat the stove at least once a week.

АП: And you yourself won't live there?

НВ: Oh, no, I won't. Especially considering everything that happened. We never finally moved there, and I have work here in Obninsk. If I come there, I will most likely stay at an acquaintance's. Everything depends on how my husband's case will develop.

АП: Are you afraid?

НВ: Well, in general, yes.

АП: What are you afraid of?

НВ: I'm afraid of illegal actions against myself, regarding what will happen next with my husband.

АП: Am I correct in understanding that your unwillingness to live in this house, it's connected with fear that they might come for you too?

НВ: Yes-yes-yes-yes-yes, come illegally. We also have it so secluded there, and, of course, when we were there together with my husband, and generally before all this, before this whole situation, I didn't have such fears, worries. But now, of course, yes.

АП: If everything ends well and your husband is released in the near future, are you considering the option of leaving the country?

НВ: Oh, you know, honestly, such thoughts arose, but I don't know, probably unlikely. You understand, every person wants to do something in their life. Let's say, if my profession allows working remotely, and working in other countries, then what my husband wanted, everything is located near our house in Gremyachy. This is what he always dreamed of.

АП: You mean what exactly, the hotel?

НВ: Yes, living near nature, working physically a lot, well again this his dream with the hotel to receive people. He wanted to conduct tours around Belgorod Oblast. I'm telling you, he's very interested in history, and he's a magnificent storyteller. He even wanted, you know, to engage in tourism business. Conduct tours, tell people, show, receive guests at his place. Well, this is such his calling and desire. He also loves very much to plant seedlings, engage in agricultural work.

АП: After you found out what happened, did your close ones, your friends support you? Maybe there was some response from refugees, if you communicate with them, from those who lived with you?

НВ: Yes, everyone supports, everyone calls, everyone is interested. And you know, of course, the thing is that they haven't sent me yet, and Sasha's son, he decided to create a channel to get more support. He hasn't sent me the contact yet, so if he sends it, it would be great if you wrote about it.

АП: Good, I will wait for this information from you too.

[...]

АП: How do you think, if they release him quickly now, will you continue?

НВ: They're unlikely to release him quickly, but, knowing my husband, here's still a question of how he will recover from all this. Probably, to some extent he will continue - maybe not like it was. I don't know yet.

АП: Maybe a tough question, but you said "knowing my husband, need to see how he recovers." Do you think that what happened now is a very serious shock for him?

НВ: I think, quite serious. Although, of course, he said that anyway the fact that he's always in sight and in contact... That is, there was a sense of danger, but still.

АП: Did he share his worries about this with you?

НВ: Yes. For example, there was a case when he was transporting some guy, the guy didn't pass through the border, and they didn't let him back out. And he said something there - in short, they detained him.

АП: They detained the guy or your husband?

НВ: The guy, not my husband. I don't remember what he said. You understand, there's also such a situation there. When you bring people by car, they take passports from the drivers.

АП: Why?

НВ: Well I don't know, apparently so they won't leave, so they stay here and wait. If, for example, a refugee is not allowed through, then the driver who brought him must take him back.

АП: So the driver is obliged to wait at the checkpoint without a passport, and only then, when the person is already allowed through, they give the passport back to the driver, and he can go? He can't just deliver and go back?

НВ: Yes-yes-yes.

АП: You seem to have not finished your thought about what happened with that guy.

НВ: Well, my husband worried because they have his passport, and this guy was detained, some reasons. That is, questions could arise for my husband. I think they didn't arise, but...

АП: Did he then take him back?

НВ: No-no-no-no-no, that's it, we didn't see this guy anymore.

АП: Ah, wow, so they took him and...

НВ: Him, yes, detained completely. The thing is, my husband transported people, he didn't look at passports, he didn't always know what everyone was called. Here comes some big family. He says: "I'll remember someone one, what his name is, a person," - yes, or a woman, well, doesn't matter.

АП: How did refugees find out about you? Is this some volunteer communities or what?

НВ: My husband joined various chats, plus telephone radio. And he, you know, gave his business card to those who crossed [the border].

АП: But am I correct in understanding that unlike taxi drivers who get money for this, for him this was purely his initiative, that is, he didn't get anything...

НВ: At first we spent our own money, but then, when Sasha already appeared somewhere in chats, donations started coming. People wanted to help, my husband gave the card number, and money was transferred. He could pay for gas, well, he bought these carts too, sometimes strollers. Sometimes people paid themselves, for example, if they had some means.

АП: Since your husband was quite well-known among volunteers, did this whole situation that happened affect the volunteer community somehow?

НВ: You know, you need to ask them about this. I know that, let's say, some refugees wrote to me that they want to help somehow.

АП: Refugees specifically, not volunteers?

НВ: Volunteers [too] yes. But you understand, such a situation, I don't know how to exclude it. Volunteers try to work quietly, so that they talk about them less. And they even asked refugees not to say that some volunteers there help with moving. So I don't know how to exclude this.

АП: I understand you. You said that it seems to you that your husband won't be released soon. Why do you think so?

НВ: Under this article they generally detain from six years. Considering that we now have a very strange legal situation in the country - well, that's why. Initially, when there was a search, one person told me that my husband gave [weapons] voluntarily. The lawyer showed me that there's a subsection in the article, that if voluntary surrender, then there, I think, punishment up to two years. Well, he says, you can reduce it to one and a half, and on appeal make seven months, for example. Now I just don't know if there are these words about voluntary surrender. I think there are words that he [husband] said that he simply didn't have time to hand over what they found with him.

АП: Have you appealed to any human rights organizations?

НВ: Our acquaintances, friends yes, they are appealing. And supposedly there's also a search for lawyers going on there. But we have a criminal article, so we need a lawyer for criminal cases.

АП: It's hard to imagine your state now, but how are you generally coping with this and to what extent have you accepted what is happening?

НВ: The first 10 days were even somehow easier. Apparently because I was all the time in motion, in tension, doing something all the time, something was happening. Now it's a little more difficult. On one hand, his son helps a lot. They unloaded me a little with this, because to live all the time in such tension, to act is also difficult. But emotionally it became, probably, more difficult - that's how I'll say it.

АП: Why?

НВ: It accumulated apparently. The psyche is also not iron.

АП: In connection with everything that happened, have you thought that you'll have to be more careful, maybe more careful in statements, if there were any before this?

НВ: Yes, I thought about it, and I discuss this with lawyers. We, by the way, have one lawyer, but, unfortunately, he's abroad, who is a lawyer, who helped before, long ago. And he now also consults. And I also ask what and how to say. There is such a thing, yes.

АП: Possibly, not for publication - did you have to censor yourself in order to remain an active volunteer in Russia? (note - the heroine allowed leaving this fragment in the version for the archive)

НВ: Well, you understand, how, what case, I can't say. The thing is, different people are encountered, that is, maybe you don't talk openly with everyone. I, for example, collected things for refugees here with us. And refugees are different - someone stayed in Russia, they have their own vision of the situation. You help people and simply understand that they found themselves in a difficult situation. Maybe, yes, somewhere you limit yourself in some conversations and discussions, let's say.

АП: A question that we usually ask all volunteers we talk to. Why was your choice volunteering, and not some anti-war statements: expressions, rallies, something else?

НВ: Because when you help people, you see the result immediately. When I first went with my husband to Kolotilovka, we were sending people off. They lived with us, I think, for several days. I don't even remember these people, don't remember these names and who it was. But I remember what a feeling of joyful relief there was when they all passed [the border]. We then drove [home], and decided to drive around Belgorod Oblast a little, and stopped at one very beautiful place. The feeling that you really did something, and here's the result.

АП: You mean that you really helped someone?

НВ: Yes.