Russia exports prisoners from occupied territories and makes them into slaves

АП: Hello, Oleg?

ОЦ: Yes.

АП: Hello. Is it convenient for you to talk now?

ОЦ: Well, let's go ahead.

АП: Good. Thank you for agreeing to talk. Usually we record our interviews in monologue format, so my questions won't appear in the published text, only your answers will. Therefore some questions I'll ask you may seem obvious to you, but I'll ask you to answer them. This is simply because the reader will only learn what's happening from your words.

ОЦ: Uh-huh.

АП: Let's start with... Also I'll be asking some questions that I already asked during our pre-call, clarifying them, and I'll also ask you to answer them.

ОЦ: Uh-huh.

АП: Let's start with you introducing yourself. How should we correctly introduce you in our material?

ОЦ: Tsvily Oleg Vladimirovich, director of the public organization "Protection of Ukrainian Prisoners."

АП: I understand, thank you. Today we're talking about prisoners, Ukrainian prisoners who are illegally taken to Russia, and as I understand, you're involved in helping these people and taking these people back out, returning these people back to Ukraine, correct?

ОЦ: Yes, we try to return stolen prisoners from temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine. This is Kherson Oblast, Crimea, Zaporizhzhia Oblast, Donetsk Oblast, Luhansk Oblast.

АП: And, as I understand, you also evacuate illegally taken people from Russia itself, correct?

ОЦ: Well, of course. The thing is that, those prisoners who were stolen, taken to Russia, or to Crimea, or they were released, in any territory not controlled by Ukraine, and we try to return them to Ukraine. We work within the framework of a project that is financed by the organization Dignity, in translation this is called "Dignity," this is a Danish organization, which, so, the project is called in Ukrainian "Zmenshennya strazhdan' v'yazniv pid chas viyny," in Russian this is "Reducing the suffering of prisoners during war." We have some financial resources for this activity, and we engage in evacuation, return, more correctly it would be to call it the return of former prisoners, already former prisoners to Ukraine. For now the question is about former prisoners. Those prisoners whose term has not yet ended, Russia and the occupation, let's say, authorities don't give them to us.

АП: And tell me, please, how many prisoners were taken to Russia after the start of the full-scale invasion? Illegally taken?

ОЦ: How many prisoners were taken, no one can establish the exact number for you. The approximate number by my calculations - this is about 2.5 thousand prisoners were stolen from us.

АП: Are you now talking about some specific oblasts of Ukraine or about all of Ukraine in general?

ОЦ: No, I'm now talking about Kherson and Mykolaiv oblasts.

АП: That is, about 2.5 thousand prisoners from Kherson and Mykolaiv oblasts, correct?

ОЦ: Yes, about 2.5 thousand prisoners were stolen from Mykolaiv and Kherson oblasts and taken to Russia.

АП: And is it known where the taken people are placed?

ОЦ: In Russia, the taken people are placed in the Krasnodar region: in Krasnodar, in correctional institutions, in colonies, in Russian colonies, and in Volgograd Oblast, there. Well, and in Crimea they also hold our prisoners. In Crimea and in Kherson Oblast, there, in Henichesk, in Chonhar, part of our prisoners are also in slavery.

АП: If I'm not mistaken, you also mentioned Vladimir Oblast, or am I wrong?

ОЦ: Vladimir Oblast too. I can send you an approximate network of colonies. Including we cooperate with the Russian human rights organization "Sitting Rus," and Olga Romanova also helps, she helps us establish the locations of all prisoners. Mainly, they are all located in Krasnodar and Volgograd.

АП: Tell me please, are these separate colonies or colonies where Russian prisoners are also located, and they just mix them?

ОЦ: Yes, these are colonies where Russian prisoners are located, but if we take Volgograd, then there they cleared a barrack for our Ukrainian prisoners, one local section, where they keep them all together there. In Krasnodar region our prisoners are held together with Russian prisoners, all mixed.

АП: Probably the main question that worries everyone - I'm not sure if you have an answer to it - but is it clear why Russia needs Ukrainian prisoners at all?

ОЦ: Why Russia needs Ukrainian prisoners - there's no one hundred percent answer, there's no answer here - but I'll risk assuming. During the occupation, even when they were still on Ukrainian territory, I mean, in occupied Kherson Oblast, they already used them as slave labor, as participants in the referendum, as agitation, so that they would accept Russian citizenship, get Russian passports. I understand they need this to confirm their line, that they, Russia is supposedly a humane country. And here, and they're right, because many, let's say, traitors, including from among prisoners, gladly received Russian citizenships. This, I think, is for show, for the zombie box [editor's note: derogatory term for television], for agitation. This is one point. The second point - they still attract them as slave labor. We know cases when they attracted them to build new, let's say, structures on occupied territory in Kherson, for building administrative buildings there for FSIN management, for building new prisons, for building various bunkers there, defensive structures, including they used them for looting. When the Russians were retreating from Kherson Oblast, with the help of prisoners they loaded archives, various equipment from administrative and private premises, they robbed gas stations, drained fuel, fuel oil, in general, diesel. All this was also done with the help of prisoners. And one more moment - this is maintaining pressure. They speculate with feelings, tension in society, to maintain this intensity, to bargain, let's say, in negotiations. To use for their interests.

АП: That is, you mentioned attracting to labor - can we say that essentially this is such a new GULAG [editor's note: Soviet forced labor camp system].

ОЦ: Yes. The thing is, part of the people at the time of removal, when they stole prisoners and took them to Russia - 154 people were in settler status. That is, they were not free people, but also not prisoners, like in colonies. They were taken out freely to various objects, where they attracted them to labor there. We must give credit that still, when the term ends, prisoners were released, and there became fewer of them. And therefore, to compensate for the amount of slave labor, they began bringing back Ukrainian prisoners from Russian colonies, again to this Henichesk and Chonhar. They returned them from there, some part.

АП: They returned them in connection with what, was labor force needed in Ukraine or in occupied territories?

ОЦ: On occupied territory there were initially 154 slaves, who were attracted to construction, to various other work there. When their terms ended, these prisoners were released, let go. Many of them are still in Crimea on uncontrolled territory, can't get to Ukraine, because with Ukrainian documents those who didn't get passports, they simply don't let them out, and this is a painful problem. But they needed new slaves, they needed new slaves - and they simply ordered them from colonies, from Russian colonies. There, where they took them to Russia. So these prisoners there they partially renewed their, restored their number.

АП: That is, they transported them from Russia to occupied territories?

ОЦ: Back from Russia they returned them to occupied territory, thereby restoring the number of slaves for these construction brigades, and they are located there now.

АП: And tell me, please, is anything known about construction specifically on Russian territory? Or is this only about occupied territories?

ОЦ: This is only about occupied territories. Including I have information that prisoners were attracted to building Mariupol, restoration, let's say.

АП: And you also said that new prisons are being built, somewhere also on territory...

ОЦ: In Chonhar they built, actually already completed the construction of a new prison in Chonhar. And completed an administrative building of management, let's say - FSIN for Kherson Oblast, which is headed by our traitor, collaborator Sobolev.

АП: And did they build the building on the site of a destroyed one, or did they just decide to make another prison?

ОЦ: They built on the site of, how to say - customs, crossing point, there was a border post - so on this, they finished building there, and finished building new buildings and made such a prison.

АП: That is, essentially they made another prison on occupied territory, there was no need for this...

ОЦ: Yes, it wasn't there. This prison wasn't there. There was, I'm saying, this was all a border post, how to say, there. A border checkpoint.

АП: I understand you. And you also told that in Kerch some construction was going on, where people were also attracted.

ОЦ: In Kerch there is no construction, there wasn't. In Kerch is located, in our terms this is the second colony, the Russians renamed it - it's their 126th colony, the same. According to our registers it's called the Deuce, according to Russian it's called the 126th. It's located in Kerch. And in several stages they already returned prisoners there, those who were taken to Russia before this. There, they don't build anything there, but they made a separate local sector for them too. The first stage was beaten very badly, OMON officers or some special forces of their FSIN met them. They just harshly received them, beat them, humiliated them. The second, third stage was more or less calm, the fourth stage was also harshly beaten, they broke their arms, legs.

АП: And you spoke about using prisoners for referendums. That is, do you have some confirmations that they were forced to participate in this?

ОЦ: Yes, in particular, prisoners whom we managed to save give us such testimonies. That is, during the retreat they, the occupants didn't manage to take all prisoners. Specifically in Kherson pre-trial detention center on Perekopskaya, 10, in the city of Kherson. Before the war our authorities closed this pre-trial detention center for inadequate conditions, but prisoners remained there. And there literally right next to it is also the closed 61st colony. So on this territory of pre-trial detention center and colony, they are combined together like that, part of prisoners were located. And prisoners, specifically convicted and also people on trial, who didn't have a sentence. There were up to 500 people. So this part of prisoners they didn't manage to take out, but actively attracted them to the referendum. Not all, actually they just put checkmarks for everyone, and for show, for Russian television some prisoners were used, who then gave us, so, such testimonies: "Yes, they just formally filmed us, like we're coming out, like we're taking part in this voting." Some even gave a comment there - well, positive for Russia, such as they needed, for Russian TV, this was.

АП: That is, they participated in this referendum for Kherson's entry into Russia, did they threaten them somehow?

ОЦ: Of course. All this was not voluntary, all this was by coercion. People were forced to take part not even in voting - actually they had no voting. They were forced to take part in filming a propaganda video, as if they come out, some part there, and participate in this action. That is, part of prisoners were just, such staged movie was filmed, and for all the rest there they just, apparently, put checkmarks, and that's all.

АП: And is it known to you how they threatened them, what they told them?

ОЦ: Well, if every day actually people were brought to the colony with a bag on their head, including civilians, with shot knees, when they stormed this pre-trial detention center, one prisoner was simply killed. When they starved them for 2 months in a row, during inspections they came in and beat them: just beat, beat up, mocked, didn't provide medical help. Well, what do you think, what other arguments are needed to flawlessly fulfill their wishes? This was all very demonstrative, especially on the territory of this colony a pit 10 by 10 wide was dug, I think, I'm afraid to be wrong. Maybe 20 by 20. In short, a huge pit was dug. There was a supposition that some kind of mass grave was being prepared, that is, mass burial. And until the last moment prisoners thought that they would blow them up there. There was information that the colony was mined, then there was information about the explosion of the tower - the television tower in Kherson. It's located near this institution. In the end they blew it up, it fell toward the park. But if it had fallen on the prison, then naturally this giant, it would have buried everything, everything under itself. And I'll also say that specifically there, to this pre-trial detention center, they brought prisoners from different colonies: from the 90th, from the 10th, from the Seventh, those whom the FSB suspected of cooperation with Ukrainian authorities and with armed forces. Many went through torture there, part of them were those who before conviction took part in the ATO [editor's note: Anti-Terrorist Operation], since 2014, in Donetsk, Luhansk. Just then, when there was some period of rotation, they committed some crime, were convicted by Ukrainian authorities and served punishment. But they are participants in combat actions. And after the start of the full-scale invasion from February 24, 2022, they all wrote applications for voluntary participation in defending the country. These prisoners - part of them survived, part of them it's unknown where - we suspect they're simply no longer alive. And specifically this category of these prisoners, were taken to this pre-trial detention center, where they worked on them there: interrogations, FSB officers, they tied them there, cut them, tortured them with electricity, there are various nightmarish such stories. I'm saying, they wanted to either liquidate this category, or take them with them, but didn't manage to do either one or the other. Something interfered, they were just lucky. And those prisoners in those colonies, from which they were stolen, already considered that they weren't alive. They stole them, and there was no information from them. And so it turns out that they were even somewhere luckier than those who were taken to Russia. And they left them crimes in pre-trial detention center, and already when our authorities came, then we provided help to these people. Those who had sentences, were transported deep into the country, those whose sentence had not yet been determined by court, they were released to their homes.

АП: And returning precisely to those prisoners who were taken to Russian territory, were any separate categories of prisoners taken out, are there any specific articles, or do they take out everyone in a row? Maybe there are most common articles with which they take them out? Is there at least some logic there?

ОЦ: Regarding logic, who was taken to Russia, there are no criteria here. Both lifers ended up there, and sick tuberculosis patients ended up there, prisoners from different regimes ended up there, with different sentences. They just kind of first took out Mykolaiv fifth colony and the Seventh, then the tenth colony to the 90th, then the 90th they all took out again to the Seventh, gathered them all together there and with the Seventh already sent them to Russia. There are no patterns here - it's unclear why they did it this way.

АП: And different articles, correspondingly, yes?

ОЦ: And different articles, different sentences, different regimes, different health conditions. The thing is that the Seventh and Tenth, and Fifth - these are hospitals, these are specialized punishment institutions where they treat prisoners. They bring them there from all over Ukraine. And so kind of during occupation all these prisoners fell under occupation, into captivity, and they took them all together.

АП: What diseases are we talking about?

ОЦ: First of all, this is tuberculosis. Well, and the most common other diseases, this is HIV, hepatitis, well, there were various diseases. Someone needed operations. Women ended up there too. These are regional hospitals, well, mainly, they specialized in tuberculosis. But tuberculosis, as a rule, doesn't walk alone, and together there's also a complex of other diseases. Specifically if the 10th colony specialized in various other diseases, then the Seventh and Fifth - these are purely specialized tuberculosis hospitals.

АП: And is anything known about whether any medical help is provided in Russia to them?

ОЦ: Generally treatment of tuberculosis patients - this is course, let's say, therapy, which should not be interrupted. This is the whole point of treatment, that therapy should be correctly determined and not interrupted. When our prisoners were taken to Russia, for 2 months they provided no help at all. That is, upon arrival, for example, them, tuberculosis patients were distributed to Russian colonies where they treat such diseases, tuberculosis, but they there for about a month and a half only went through diagnostics. After that, repeat diagnostics. Then Russian doctors already prescribed them treatment. But treatment of the most basic quality, let's say. So tuberculosis is treated by lines [editor's note: medical treatment regimens]. If the bacillus mutates, if it there, so, there are lines. First line first, second line, third line, quality, seriousness of medications. And quality of medications, so if they, being in Ukraine, received quality treatment, then in Russia already, first of all, this was interrupted, there was a huge break of a month and a half to two months. Well, and in the end they began treating them with the most primitive medications. And some were also partially expired, we have such information too. That is, actually, I don't know if this was treatment, or this was on the contrary harm by such methods. But by facts we have what we have. Our prisoners are released... Also returned prisoners, several prisoners, sick with tuberculosis, they return in bad condition. One prisoner from Cherkasy Oblast, he literally just made it to ours, ours already called an ambulance for him. That is, he's in border territory, they immediately took him to the hospital. Well, very bad condition the person had. Actually he was, I don't know how he made it through, because the return route, it's complex. I don't know, he had a very big desire to return home, he has relatives here, he's from Cherkasy Oblast himself. In general, everything, thank God, ended well, but this was a person in very severe condition, who specifically told us all these moments that I already told you about: about interruption of therapy, about quality of treatment, well, and attitude, naturally.

АП: I just wanted to ask in more detail about how you manage to return people. Can you tell this in more detail using this person as an example, tell his story?

ОЦ: Look, it turns out, when prisoners' sentences end in Russian territory, they, bailiffs, police meet them under the colony - they take them to court, where the court assigns them a fine for being illegally on Russian territory. Here's this absurdity and madness: people were taken out at gunpoint, under coercion they were stolen. Upon release the court assigns them a monetary fine. And with such a sentence, that they illegally ended up on Russian territory and thereby violated Russian legislation. And after all this they take them to TsDIG [editor's note: Center for Temporary Detention of Foreign Citizens] - center for temporary detention of foreign citizens. As for prisoners who are sick with tuberculosis, in this case they don't take them to these TsDIGs, they just release them. And this case, which I just told you about the Cherkasy guy, he was just released, given a certificate of release and told: "You can go in all 4 directions." And this way, he just called us, and we conducted him through. As for healthier prisoners, further detention in these TsDIGs awaits them, where they stay for a long time. Many, I'm saying, more than six months they stay there, some for 7 months, 8. In general, people suffer further. It turns out, their sentence ended, but they're in another prison. They continue, you can say, they continue to illegally detain them.

АП: And what happens in these TsDIGs, and under what conditions do they release a person from there?

ОЦ: They release under conditions, if they get Russian passports. This is the first condition. Many prisoners fundamentally don't want to get Russian citizenship, they say: "We don't need this red chicken [editor's note: derogatory term for Russian passport]. I'll sit as long as needed, until Ukraine takes us." But those who get Russian passports, and they release them, I also returned such people home. But there's a certain risk here. I tell them all: "You can't understand Russia," and how it will be in the future... In principle, we don't persecute here for, let's say, a hopeless situation, when a person, how to be released and get home, nothing else remains but to get a Russian passport. But 2 people returned home this way. But risks remain here in that if you already get Russian citizenship, so they can call you up to fight against Ukraine. Or again, there - dig trenches, or build something, do something. Once you're already a Russian citizen, then be so kind, bring benefit or defend. Well, the propaganda of "defend" kind of, actually this is "attack," because Russia is an aggressor. But there it's presented as, defend the country.

АП: And are there any examples when this actually happened?

ОЦ: No, there are no such examples, who specifically got Russian passports and started fighting. Most likely, these are traitors from among prisoners, who voluntarily agreed to such conditions. And those who wanted to be clever, get a Russian passport, and there further, to get to Ukraine, they were called up for service - such, fortunately, moments haven't happened yet. But risks still remain. The second moment, how they release from these TsDIGs, this is if prisoners have Ukrainian passports. Specifically passports in order. This is either a plastic ID card, passport, or Ukrainian passport booklet, but there should be all photos pasted in. And if there's also a foreign passport with them, then this, you can say, the person is lucky. Such they deport through third countries, this is Georgia and Latvia. But the majority of our prisoners - their documents are on Ukrainian territory. Or, if this concerns Kherson Oblast, many documents, those who were free, they burned, they drowned, they disappeared, all these documents. People's documents didn't survive in freedom, and except for the certificate of release from Russian prison... By the way, they give them certificates of release not from the prison where they're actually released from, but from Hola Prystan Seventh, from our Kherson colony, from where they stole them all, from the last place where they brought them together and stole them. They stole them from the Seventh. So they give all of them certificates of release, as if they were released not from Krasnodar colony, not from Volgograd colony, but from Kherson.

АП: That is, am I understanding correctly, a person is in Krasnodar colony, is released, they give him a certificate that he was released from Hola Prystan, and as if in Russia he is generally groundlessly, illegally from the point of view of Russian legislation?

ОЦ: Yes. From the point of view of Russian legislation, with this certificate of release from the Seventh, they take them directly to court and say that he illegally crossed... Again there's some inconsistency here, because they supposedly recognized Kherson as Russia, and at the same time they take them there and fine them. That is, even here according to this propagandist logic, let's say, they also have there... We take them on all these inconsistencies and document them. Besides that, this court decision, which recognizes that they weren't released from the Seventh, but they were released from that colony, from the Russian one. That is, it turns out, they have one certificate of release, and the court, when it gives them a fine, it writes there that they were released really, from where they were released. This is better for us to dig deeper into all this and dig up - to prove later in the future all this, let's say, their gluing together.

АП: Tell me, please, am I understanding correctly that the only way to leave the colony without, bypassing this TsDIG, - is to get a Russian passport? Or not?

ОЦ: Yes. Yes, or to be tuberculosis sick, let's say, positive, to be contagious BK+ [editor's note: bacteriologically positive].

АП: If returning to this prisoner from Cherkasy Oblast, what happened? They released him, how did events develop further? You said that he made some long journey to the border.

ОЦ: He was able to call his mother, mother gave the phone number of our organization, mother was aware, who deals with this. He called us, we told him the route, where to go. We have a route, there's a direct route, it's the only one, this is through Sumy Oblast. This is the route where, let's say, humanitarian corridor, which works for prisoner exchange, for returning civilians. Well, it's very, let's say, such, problematic for elderly people and for sick people. Why it's difficult, because this is foot crossing, and there from Russia to Ukrainian territory you need to walk this passage about a kilometer and a half to two. That is, this is on foot, I'm saying, for people who are elderly, children, it's difficult to pass there, there. And for a sick person especially. First, you still need to get there. It's hard to get there, because this is Belgorod Oblast in Russia, there are checkpoints, there are kind of their difficulties. And there's a risk that Russians might not let you out. Ours accept everyone, ours return their citizens. They return citizens even with incomplete documents. If it concerns prisoners, so we have cooperation with all services. I mean, border guards, SBU, police. And beforehand as we lead a person, we ourselves check him by database, is this our client, let's say, the one who was stolen from prisons from Kherson, Mykolaiv, well, or there from other regions. We convince ourselves that this person is the person who is, and we also establish connection with relatives. By the way, those who have neither documents nor relatives, this is a very deplorable situation, this is very bad. We need in any case - we're in a state of war, we need to conduct checks of these people, because there aren't always photos to compare this face with. And whom we return, whom they send under the guise of this or that prisoner, they return. Well, this can also be anything, both a saboteur, and spies, you understand. There can be any provocation, therefore from our side there's preparatory checking by those documents that exist, and by that database. And further - yes, they come here, they're also questioned here.

АП: At the border, you mean?

ОЦ: Yes, in case of serious suspicions, they take a polygraph. Well, and we accompany them further. In Ukraine a criminal case is opened on the fact of kidnapping prisoners, including they already presented charges in absentia to our traitor, this Sobolev, who in cooperation with Russian occupants carried out all this, this theft of prisoners. And again continues document forgery, continues, issues them certificates of release. They go under the signatures of our traitors. And to him, him, charges have already been presented in absentia. And we document these prisoners. Again, I don't know if it's worth shouting about this loudly, because it might affect that it will be difficult to return them. But Russia, so, look what else they do: they offer, and many agree to this, Ukrainian prisoners some kind of rosy carrots there. Possibility of getting an apartment, some monetary help in case they accept citizenship, stay in Russia and work, and fight for Russia. That is, they have some kind of program there. And in principle many agree to this. All those who kind of don't want to agree, Russia does everything so that they don't pass through this passage that we have, but to kick them out to third countries. And as soon as people appear somewhere abroad, a very-very small number wants to return to Ukraine. I think this is calculated to dissolve our victims throughout the world, so that we have minimal evidence in our evidence base of the fact of kidnapping, of facts of torture, of facts of various mockeries, of facts, these propaganda video clips. In general, about all these outrages, about all this, about all this horror. For this they kick them out through third countries.

АП: How is this arranged? That is, a person can't pass through that border you mentioned.

ОЦ: They don't let them through. We just tell them, "we have a passage, bring them" - literally by any bus to this checkpoint, we'll accept them all here.

АП: This is a checkpoint in Belgorod Oblast, am I understanding correctly?

ОЦ: Yes, this is Kolotilovka, Krasnaya Yaruga and the crossing to our side - this is Pokrovka, Sumy Oblast. This crossing, it works, and it's the only humanitarian corridor, where it's possible to return, do prisoner exchanges and return civilians. That is, it works, and there are no problems here, everything is set up, and help and warming points. From our side everything is set up here, we provide help to everyone here. But they don't want to, they don't give up prisoners. They make excuses: bring documents, those who have documents in Ukraine, we collect them all and then transport them to these centers. And already with documents they take them out through third countries. As a rule, this is Georgia.

АП: How is this arranged? People are brought to the border with Georgia...

ОЦ: They tell them there: "Don't admit that you're former prisoners, that you were stolen. You there at customs say that you're just some kind of guest workers, that you got lost here, before the war you still worked somewhere. That is, that you're civilian people." Many just take and fall for these their advice, let's say, and destroy certificates of release, destroy some other evidence that they were in Russia, where they were located. And there they tell and seep through there as civilian people. And they destroy themselves, they tell them: "Want to cross the border? Destroy all your documents and don't say who you are." This way people seep through.

АП: What is this done for, why do they ask them to destroy documents?

ОЦ: This is all evidence base, they understand that they violated the law, they want as few as possible to remain of some kind of evidence, testimonies of their crimes. Maximally more people didn't return to Ukraine. They tell them horrors there: there they conscript, you'll go fight, there all kinds of different things, in short.

АП: What happens next, how do they manage to cross into Georgia? That is, Georgia lets them in without documents?

ОЦ: Georgia lets them in without documents.