I’m not giving up my Donetsk identity

ОК: Good afternoon!

КА: Thank you so much for agreeing to speak with me. Before interviews I always ask: do you have any questions for me that we need to discuss before we start our conversation?

ОК: I probably wouldn't want the interview to be anonymous. I don't give anonymous interviews – I don't worry about speaking for myself, for my position, my opinions and experience.

КА: Good, then at the end of the interview we'll discuss in detail how to best identify you, since the interview isn't anonymous. And I'll ask right away: do you need to read the material before publication?

ОК: I usually don't read it and trust journalists. Nastya Bereza recommended you, I trust Nastya. I've worked with media that distort information. I don't edit anything I said, the only thing is that, like everyone, I'm afraid of manipulation. I have a lot of experience with journalist interviews, and they've happened. So let's see, I'll probably agree to read it, but again, I don't make big edits. From a security standpoint I'll read it. It's such a strange time now, you can get in trouble for anything.

КА: I understand perfectly, of course. I'll just have one small note: we want to publish the interview most likely over the weekend, so the text will be ready tomorrow evening. I'm just warning that...

ОК: I work constantly, I react very quickly, I'm always with my phone. [But] if I don't respond to you, you have the right to publish without my reading it.

КА: No, since we agreed, we definitely won't do that, I'm just warning to set some timeframe.

ОК: No problem. If it's from one in the morning until 9 AM, then I probably won't manage to proofread it, I sleep at that time. In general, send it, I think we'll coordinate.

КА: Yes, excellent, thank you. Then we'll just plan that tomorrow evening at some reasonable time I'll send it to you. I want to immediately outline the framework of our conversation, so it's clear where I'm leading and what the questions will be about. If I generalize, the subtitle is "9 years of war," that it's not going for one year, and it's very important for us to discuss this. Nastya told me about your story, those cities where war caught up with you again and again. What is it like when you're constantly moving? This is your personal experience of war that began in 2014, not a year ago at all. We'll go into maximum detail to try to convey to the reader what it's like. Plus, as I understand, all your activity is connected to war, to aid, this is also an important point, that you're not just a person who moves, but you are, if I may put it this way, a patriot of your region. This is also a key point, and I'd like to discuss this. Shall we start then?

ОК: Yes, of course.

КА: Then let's start from the very beginning, from the very beginning of the war. As I understand, you're from Donetsk, correct?

ОК: Yes-yes, I was both born in Donetsk and lived there right up until 2016. My parents are from Donetsk, my grandmothers and grandfathers at a certain period, in the 60s, either moved to Donetsk or lived in Donetsk Oblast from the beginning of the 20th century. All our relatives are from here.

КА: Can you try to describe, before the war, before 2014, Donetsk – what kind of city was it? What was happening in it, how was life for you there?

ОК: It's the city of my childhood, where I grew up, it's a place where you live most of your initially unconscious life, and then conscious life. It's childhood, school, university, your friends, your acquaintances, parents' friends and their company. It's some neighbors, streets. That is, it's what you generally associate with yourself from childhood. I can say that when I was still a teenager, a child, it was quite an ordinary Ukrainian post-Soviet city with an industrial bent. That's how people lived there, what professions they were proud of, the balance of culture and working class. And when I started studying at university, this was from 2009, we had a period of the city's rise. The city was actively preparing for Euro-2012, it was modernizing. Donetsk was such a city that absorbed youth from small settlements. This wasn't only Donetsk Oblast, it was often Dnipropetrovsk Oblast and Zaporizhzhia Oblast too. I was probably always from such a, slightly non-standard, but at the same time ordinary environment for Donetsk. My dad is a journalist, he's a person of intellectual activity, creative activity. He played KVN [editor's note: a popular Soviet comedy competition] long ago, was a writer, played at some very high level. And this formed the environment that I [had] – this was the environment of Donetsk, conditionally, intellectuals, who had a demand for more, for some reconstruction of the city in terms of cultural and other things, creating some unusual media, places, events. At a conscious age, on one hand, I wanted a big city, I liked Kyiv, and I always dreamed of how I would move to a big city – like probably any growing organism. But I stayed in Donetsk. I absolutely didn't regret staying there. I had my own company, my own path of development. I had an informal crowd, I did sports. In principle, until 2014 my life was fulfilled. Maybe I wasn't planning to stay in Donetsk forever. But at least my family definitely planned to stay in Donetsk and not move anywhere. It was such a base city. Even if I had left, I would always come home, to my parents, to my room, conditionally.

КА: You were thinking about maybe moving to Kyiv. But why didn't it work out, why did you decide to stay in Donetsk? Did you find something special in Donetsk, or was it just circumstances?

ОК: No, everything's simpler. When I was a high school graduate, I got into the period of ZNO [editor's note: external independent evaluation], meaning you could apply to 3-4 universities. I always studied well, I was an excellent student with a medal, I wrote the ZNO well. I don't know if you know what ZNO is.

КА: Yes-yes-yes.

ОК: There was nothing unusual. Probably at that moment I was still dependent on my parents' opinion. My parents were afraid to let me go to Kyiv. I studied journalism, I can't say that I very consciously chose the profession, I sort of thought I wanted to be a journalist, and thought I'd go study there, and then when the time came to choose a university profession, I somehow realized that this wasn't quite my desire, rather a family tradition. My dad is a journalist, my brother is a journalist. I somehow also decided to go in the same direction, and ultimately got budget [funding], and I stayed. Plus I had ties. There's such a sport – sports aerobics and fitness, [I was already doing sports] at this university where I was supposed to study. I already had more understandable guidelines than Kyiv, which was unknown to my parents and to me. Most likely, it was a bit of cowardice.

КА: So these were circumstances that ultimately stopped you?

ОК: Yes.

КА: So by 2014 you were already finishing university...

ОК: I was just finishing my master's degree, fifth year. In June 2014, when there were active military actions in Donetsk Oblast, I was getting my diploma.

КА: Under shelling, what horror.

ОК: Yes-yes, Girkin's column entered us already in early July, before that there was some shelling, there were first hits. We had an airport that was first shelled on May 26, this is where the phase of active military actions in Donetsk begins. It was already restless in terms of there already being military actions.

КА: Let's pause here a bit, stop. How did the war with Russia begin for you, a resident of Donetsk who was born there, lived her conscious adult life there?

ОК: The war probably began with the referendum in Crimea. Then we started to feel something and understood that things would get worse for us, because Donetsk was still such a polarized city. I can't say it was completely pro-Russian, because I and my colleagues, my classmates, we went to pro-Ukrainian rallies. Donetsk National University, philological, historical faculty – I studied at the philology faculty, journalism belonged to it – they were more pro-Ukrainian. Of course, our faculty also gave birth to ardent pro-Russian activists and some two-day officials later. But a large number of my circle went to pro-Ukrainian rallies. It's hard to understand, I honestly don't remember some of my feelings about the war. I don't remember being frightened at that moment. We'll talk further about the experience of 2014, when it all began. I was 22 years old, I didn't experience fear, horror, numbness, I didn't have that. I had some slightly clouded sense of everything. That is, you're constantly just in some process, it still seemed that it should stop, that this is some very unhealthy story, we can't have war. I didn't differ from most people who didn't believe there could be any shelling and any active military actions in Donetsk. It seemed this was some surreal situation. It should last briefly, and then somehow resolve. Because [when] it was starting, it looked strange and surreal even from the Maidan period. In Donetsk there was very active Anti-Maidan, supported by some local authorities, politicians. Including they brought in a huge number of Russians who imitated all this support from the local population. Including, I can say that both police and Donetsk law enforcement structures didn't resist this, even in some cases supported it. I know that even among my acquaintances there were policemen who went in the evening, at night to guard near the Regional State Administration – they expected that Banderites [editor's note: Ukrainian nationalists] would come to do something in Donetsk. There were many myths, we looked at this as something temporarily unhealthy. Well, some sabbath is happening. If it's happening, then someone is allowing it to happen, and if it ends, then probably someone controls this. Then it seemed that our local elite, our politicians control this somehow, and they have some plans of their own, their own bargaining with the newly elected Kyiv authorities, as it was called then. Maidan – this was definitely won by Kyiv authorities, they said that in Donetsk. Events began to develop rapidly when the airport and so on started. This was, I can't say scary, this was strange. This was strange. I didn't fully realize the scale, the consequences. I can even say that when they shelled the airport and there was smoke at the airport, and all these consequences, we still remained in the city. It seemed this was like an emergency, but very local. So local, at a point, that's all.

КА: Can this mythology and polarization that existed in Donetsk be explained somehow? I want to show a bit of the specificity of the atmosphere in Donetsk that existed in 2014. What are these myths? How did this polarization manifest, how did it look from the outside?

ОК: I'll tell you as a layperson here. It seems to me that historians-philosophers should speak on such topics. But Donetsk Oblast, as an Eastern oblast of Ukraine, was always closely connected with Russia. We have many people, they have many relatives in Russia, I also have relatives in Russia. People went to work in Russia, if they aspired to leave for better places, they chose Russia, Moscow or something else. The region's connection with the Russian Federation was very large. Including culturally. We had Russian television for a long time alongside Ukrainian. I don't remember what program on "First Channel," "Time" or "News," anyway, some at 8:00 PM, many of the older generation who were raised, lived most of their lives in the Soviet Union, they had such a habit of watching "Time" on "First Channel." Plus, we had many assets of the "Party of Regions," which was also considered pro-Russian, supported by Russian authorities, [they] played on language issues, on economic issues. This was fueled and, I think, the people were partially warmed up by propaganda that was already working then. I remember, the biggest rift was... My boyfriend at that time got a call from his mom, she lived in the depths of Donetsk Oblast, in a small settlement, and said hysterically that she watched the news and heard there that everyone who speaks Russian will be put in prison. Arrest and put in prison after Maidan's victory. She's an adult person, she said this absolutely seriously, and part of the population thought so. If they said so on TV, then that's how it is. That is, that's how it was fueled. After Crimea's annexation, I think more people of retirement age wanted to be part of Russia, because Russia was always for them an image of prosperity: we'll have higher pensions, we'll have better roads. In general, for them this was such a myth that this would be a really better life. A better life, it would be better for them if Donbas became part of the Russian Federation. Therefore these pro-Russian unrest in Donetsk increased also from the point of view that Crimea was annexed by referendum, without war, without shots. Again, I can't say that in Donetsk this was the majority, that this was really the majority, so this happened. In Donetsk there was a very large number of pro-Ukrainian people who didn't want this. There was a large number of people who didn't care, they wanted a peaceful life. And these people who didn't care, they just didn't go anywhere, went to work and so on. The referendum including, no matter how they tried to show the Donetsk referendum, that this was a large gathering of people, queues – one school per district was working. Of course, there were some people there. I can't say that nobody came to the referendum, but this was, I don't know, up to 20 percent probably of the general population that can vote. And even then, I think I added generously.

КА: It's absolutely clear that it's a myth that Donetsk Oblast is purely pro-Russian. It just seems very important to me to say this from your voice specifically.

ОК: People from Donetsk, from Donetsk, from Luhansk oblasts often tried to justify themselves, [we] wave apologetically: "9 years," – another says: "No-no-no, we're not vatniki [editor's note: derogatory term for pro-Russian people], we're not pro-Russian, here there are other people too." But actually I can say that the coloring of Donetsk, Luhansk oblasts, and now all the Southeast, as pro-Russian minded regions happened thanks to propaganda of both the Russian Federation and, unfortunately, Ukraine, its bumpkins, its political figures. This can be seen in many-many prejudices that exist regarding the region.

КА: This seems to me a separate thread that I'll touch on if we have enough time and you have enough strength. Now I want to return chronologically, 2014, the pseudo-referendum in Crimea. In Donetsk it seems to you that this is a temporary story, just some madness that will end soon. What was the first marker for you that this is war, something already serious? When did this sense break that it will end soon, to what's happening is something terrible?

ОК: When Girkin's column entered Donetsk. I was still living then in a rented apartment, its windows conditionally faced the highway along which all this moved. I was sitting then working and saw through the window how a long column of equipment was moving, it entered absolutely calmly. Then this became a marker for us that all this will now come to Donetsk. They were coming from Sloviansk to Donetsk. They reported there that they liberated Sloviansk, liberated Kramatorsk, but at the same time the column entered Donetsk without obstacles. And the day after the column, my parents and I left. We packed things, and we left for Mariupol I think, I don't remember anymore. We left for Mariupol, our grandmother was still alive there at that time, and we have an apartment there in principle, which remained from grandmother-grandfather. Well, no longer remained. We moved, went to Mariupol, and then it became clear [that something terrible began], because first there was the column, and then a large number of people left Donetsk. This was visible by the fact that the first checkpoints appeared. And the checkpoints checked cars, then it became clear that this is some story for a long time.

КА: And when did this happen?

ОК: This was July, early July 2014. We first went to Mariupol, and then I went to Kyiv. My older brother lived in Kyiv at that time with his family. I stayed with them for a couple months.

КА: And when you see the column, this already becomes a marker that real war has begun...

ОК: This was a column of military equipment moving, it wasn't just cars...

КА: Hello-hello? The connection froze for a second, and I heard the last: "this wasn't just a column, but a column of military equipment," – and then the connection broke, unfortunately.

ОК: Yes-yes, with military equipment, with people who occupied Sloviansk and conducted military actions there. This was a column with flags of Novorossiya [editor's note: self-proclaimed confederation] then still. I don't remember if there was already a Donetsk People's Republic flag, Russia. Well, it was already clear that this wasn't about good, not about them just passing through now and going, I don't know, to Rostov. This is military equipment that conducted military actions in Sloviansk, it came to Donetsk. So the same active military actions will now begin in Donetsk.

КА: And at this moment, when you see this equipment, understand that all this is very serious – how did you talk with your parents and how did you decide it was time to leave?

ОК: I don't remember, our dad is such... At that moment I was, how old, 22 or 23, 22. And he said: "Pack your things, we're leaving tomorrow." Well, everything's clear here. And you know, the strangest thing for me is that at that moment I talked with many people, I don't have completely typical sensations for war. Like my sensations in 2022, when full-scale war began – my sensations then weren't like that. I was somehow slightly, I don't know what this is connected to, but I was conscious, I realized the seriousness, but I didn't feel fear, horror, despair, unlike my parents, who at that moment were already over 50. This was their first such departure from a familiar place. For example, my parents stayed in Mariupol with grandmother, I moved to Kyiv, my mom even went to work for several more months, that is, there, because the Ukrainian state hadn't left there yet, and there was work. That is, there wasn't occupation as such yet, they didn't call it occupation or something else. There were some foreign movements there, but not yet generally recognized foreign movements.

КА: You said you had such specific sensations – there was no fear, horror. What sensations were there? What did you generally experience?

ОК: I definitely had anxiety then, because we lived with the phone in hand all night, because already, probably in July and especially in August, active military actions began specifically in Donetsk itself. There were many hits, many destructions, human casualties. In August, for example, my colleagues who still remained in Donetsk then, they said it was almost a dead, empty city, that there was almost nobody there, nobody could be seen on the streets. In Donetsk there were very active military actions in July, in August. Perhaps they can be compared to military actions in Kharkiv in March-April, when it was really daily and a lot. Especially, of course, the outskirts suffered more than the center, but the center was also hit then. We were lucky at that moment, because our district where our apartment was, where we lived, where my grandmother lived – my grandmother also lived in Donetsk then – we had the fewest hits there. Well, about 5 in the district for 2014. There weren't many. But the outskirts, there it hit very hard every day.

КА: How was this generally experienced? You experienced what most Ukrainians began experiencing in February 2022, when there. How was this generally experienced, when you had been living peacefully in Donetsk, which had started developing, which you liked, where all your family was, and here you're leaving urgently, still not quite understanding for how long apparently. How was this feeling experienced, that your native city, beautiful, green, developing, is now under constant bombing, under shelling?

ОК: Hard specifically not even from the point of view of the city, but from the point of view of people who remained there. Not everyone left there, I had lots of acquaintances, relatives left. You just constantly sit and watch what address got hit. This in 2022 they often wrote in Ukraine: "Don't correct fire, don't write addresses." But in Donetsk there's no such thing. There even now, if something hits, they write exactly which address. You sit, watch and compare. Someone's relatives worked at a mine, and there the mine could be de-energized, and people underground. Then checkpoints weren't closed yet, people traveled back and forth. It was hard to watch not even from the point of view of the city – from the point of view of people who remained there, because all this is chaotic. Plus, then in the city there was absolute lawlessness, there was one power of shelling, and another – of armed people who had no status, they were just given weapons, and they fought. I even now, when I started talking about people with weapons, remembered that local authorities left Donetsk in spring, early summer, then active seizure of resources began from republic supporters. They took people's cars, equipment, business, whoever knew what, from whom [what there is]. If you're a republic supporter, you could come and take this for the republic's benefit. And this, by the way, isn't myths, this is reality that my very close people faced, when a person came, he's now the new minister, conditionally, of culture, and he says: "And here you have, I know, great equipment, donate this to the new ministry. We'll come tomorrow with the guys in a car." This was also a very strange story. I remember when they completely robbed car dealerships, took equipment. There was a lot of danger both from shelling in spring, and further, in summer, from people who weren't controlled. And Russian volunteers reached us too, including Cossacks, who engaged in outright looting. And their looting was stopped closer to the end of 2014. And all this time, while business from Donetsk tried to leave, they at checkpoints or not at checkpoints, at warehouses, they seized. They had a huge amount of looted goods discovered. They didn't particularly stand on ceremony then. There were also murders of people who didn't want to give up. Then there was a lot of anarchy and a lot of these uncontrolled people who, including, came to war to profit a bit.

КА: And do I understand correctly that this state of anarchy and seizure began when you were still in Donetsk?

ОК: Yes-yes, they began in spring. I remember, I have a picture in my head, that we're walking from my graduation, I was getting my diploma at university. This was June, probably mid-June. Then everything still worked, everything was normal, but already these comrades with weapons were there. And we're walking, crossing the road on Artem Street, this is like the central street, and coming toward us is a guy of ordinary gopnik [editor's note: young street thug] appearance, he has some rifle weapon in his hand, I don't know, some rifle, not a Kalashnikov, some rifle weapon. He's walking, waving it around, and at this time, I see that everyone lowers their eyes, nobody wants to meet his gaze. Because you don't know what he'll do now. He has a Donetsk People's Republic t-shirt and all that. Everyone walked, and you can't do anything, because then police didn't react to anything at all. And in police in early June also began certain peculiarities, not even in early, closer to the end of June, when they started robbing, power changed. Part of the police left, I don't know, on recommendations to Ukraine, to Ukrainian-controlled territory, and part stayed, because they supported the republic. And including these policemen knew where weapons lay, how to get to them. And they themselves robbed their own stations.

КА: I'm trying to catch the sensations of your state. Despite the fact that Russians entered the city, already these Donetsk People's Republic t-shirts, weapons, you continued to stay in the city, – and you still didn't have a sense that this is some catastrophe?

ОК: Listen, the concept "Russians entered" – this isn't when they [drive in] in a big column, which was in 2022. These are just people in civilian clothes who stand at a rally, shout, [hold] posters, throw stones. Here you see them walking with some weapons. This is all alarming, but you still don't understand how much. We lived in a country with law, with some controlled government bodies, with police. It seemed that this should be controlled by someone somehow. We don't live in a desert. There's a state, there are structures, policemen, security services. There wasn't some escalation on TV, in media. Like I was in Kyiv when Maidan was happening. Also something restless, also something unusual is happening, but you don't fully understand how this is controlled. Then it was possible for everyone to take and leave Kyiv, you don't know how it will be further. Also on one hand there were some armed people, policemen, there were fights, there were clashes, they beat participants. You also don't know how this, what this will result in. So here it seemed that this is unclear what this will result in. You don't know what to do. Now already, with a nine-year term, you understand what's what, that probably your location isn't the most successful, and there can be different consequences. We hadn't encountered war then, some civil riots stronger than on Maidan. Maidan seemed to me then something terrible, impossible, with the dead, with shot people. And here it was unclear. We didn't have a large number of casualties. We had rallies, we had one killed at one of the pro-Ukrainian rallies. But there wasn't such that a pro-Ukrainian rally came out, everyone was shot and goodbye. There wasn't such. There was something unclear, we generally had a sense that we could still somehow fight, that there are some, conditionally, negotiations at some highest level among politicians, authorities and so on. We, as civilian population, can come out to rallies, we can somehow influence. Well, we can't influence anarchy, why would you risk your life to clash with some unclear personalities. But it seemed that when agreement happens, it will definitely happen in a good way conditionally – all comrades will be eliminated, they'll be disarmed and so on. Well, they really disarmed them all, only they disarmed them when they built Donetsk People's Republic structures.

КА: That is, these examples of looting or seizure toward the so-called republic, they were perceived as something strange, but very temporary.

ОК: Yes-yes. It's generally strange to understand that police doesn't react to such things, that some comrades can come in. But many policemen really supported the pro-Russian side. I don't know what this is connected to, I didn't analyze police psychology, but a large number of people from police calmly switched [to Russia's side]. This created a large police formation of already the new conditional republics, these were specifically policemen. Perhaps this happened because of that discrediting of "Berkut" [editor's note: special police unit] and others that was on Maidan. Because there was "Berkut" specifically of Donetsk-Luhansk oblast, from Kharkiv. Perhaps they felt they were betrayed, set up, that in Ukraine they aren't perceived [as before]. In general, perhaps they had some professional peculiarity in this. I don't know, I can't say, these are my assumptions. The paradox was that a large number of law enforcement representatives easily switched [to Russia's side], including SBU [editor's note: Security Service of Ukraine]. This happened, including, on newly occupied territories in 2022. The number of people from any oblast of Ukraine who will start collaborating with occupiers will be the same, whether this is Lviv Oblast, Kherson, Donetsk, Kyiv Oblast. There will be approximately the same percentage of them. In Donetsk there's high population density. But collaborators, there are always tons of them. You watch Ukrainian news, in Ivano-Frankivsk they detained an informant, and you think: well how, this is western Ukraine, it's us they usually accuse of being pro-Russian collaborators. But this is some general statistics, and nothing can be done about it, people are different.

КА: I want to dwell on these first days more. When you talked with your parents, agreed with their opinion that you needed to leave – do you remember the moment how you packed things, did you think about how long you were leaving for?

ОК: You know, you're asking me about this period that I absolutely don't remember. I remember in fragments, conditionally, when I heard a military plane for the first time, this was in May, it was loud. I saw this guy with a rifle – second picture. I don't remember at all how we left, I already remember how we crossed a checkpoint, Ukrainian military stood there, everyone supported them, everyone waved to them, all the people who passed through. My next picture – I'm already sitting in Kyiv at my brother's house, I'm constantly scrolling through news. I'm thinking what to do next, because I need to look for work, I finished university after all. But I can't concentrate, I'm scrolling through news. I had vivid feelings in 2022, I remember them very well. In 2014 I don't remember anything at all. I even have some feeling, you know, when you scold yourself for not feeling some things enough, perhaps some pain. But I was very positively minded [then], it seemed to me that this should end. Moreover I was sure that it would end with Ukraine's victory, this was unquestionable, that this was to scare us, conditionally. I was 22, I didn't have big life experience and, I don't know, understanding of wars, how they go on a local level.

КА: Do you remember such a household detail – when you packed things, what you took with you and for what period of time? Maybe it was a backpack...

ОК: We all took conditionally summer things that were needed for this period. This is a frequent peculiarity of displaced persons, that they left for a sanatorium in slippers and thought they'd return, but didn't return. Very often all displaced persons say this, both in 2014 and in 2022. Look, then there was a very specific stage, we left in summer, August was very harsh for military actions. They shelled Donetsk very heavily. And in September the Minsk agreements were signed, and the shelling stopped. And this gave some hope then, then very many people returned to Donetsk. I didn't have such that I'm packing and thinking very hard about what I need. I was going for some moment, to leave for summer. I returned to Donetsk in September, so it didn't reflect for me that I left and then looked at what I took. I don't have this story, because I left, spent some time there and then returned in September also for a time, but then stayed.

КА: You leave for Kyiv, constant doomscrolling – a smart word that was invented much later. You constantly read news, you have some unclear status in terms of work, because you just finished university. How was life for you in Kyiv, and why did you ultimately decide to return to Donetsk? ОК: Life in Kyiv felt strange to me because I felt a bit lost then. We were all lost back then, as displaced persons, trying to stick together, somehow support each other with our classmates who had also left, someone would sometimes just visit Kyiv. It felt strange to me in Kyiv, you know that feeling when you're outside the war, in a safer place, and Kyiv was absolutely safe then. You get even more nervous, worry even more than when you're inside. I really remember that I worried a lot about all those shellings, about people. My mom was still going there to work. You look at what the situation is. My grandmother also didn't leave, she was there constantly. You're constantly calling those who stayed there, looking, monitoring the news, it's anxiety-provoking. And I returned to Donetsk precisely for things. I just thought that now it's autumn, I'll need some things, and I went back for them. Mom was still working in civil service then, and they [started] evacuating institutions where civil servants [work] only on either November 11th or October 11th. They said that's it: "You're not carrying out activities in these territories, you must evacuate." Now, wait a second, I'll turn off the sound because my grandmother is calling me, who will call endlessly despite the fact that I'm not answering. And I came then precisely for things. I was sorting through them in September and realized that I have many things that I don't need. And then such an active volunteer movement was starting, there were many affected civilians – these were families with children. At that moment my acquaintance, with whom we studied at university, was engaged in volunteer activities in Donetsk itself, that is, they didn't leave. And I called him, I said: "Listen, I have a bunch of things here, shall I give them to you?" He says: "How about you go with me, help volunteer, transport things. In general, let's go." And so I went with him for the first time then. Then he suggested going again, and after that I stayed there to work. Well, like work, be a volunteer, because it wasn't work, but real volunteering, when we traveled a lot. I felt very calm there. [When] you're inside, you have a feeling that you control everything, that you understand the situation. The news exaggerate things. Somewhere something, I don't know, a jar broke, they already see an explosion. Someone writes that there was a hit there. Moreover, these were the Minsk agreements, there were no active combat actions. There really was a period in September when many returned to Donetsk, to Donetsk, Luhansk Oblast, even to occupied territory. Checkpoints were still working, there was no problem with checkpoints then. Only by '15 they started gradually-gradually-gradually increasing. I really felt good because, first, I was home, I saw what was happening, could see with my travels what was happening. This feeling that you're doing something in the situation and doing something useful. Considering people's reactions, how happy they were initially with this attention, this help. Then I told mine that I'll stay here another week or two, while mom is here. And then I never left, I stayed.

КА: And rewinding a bit, when you were still sitting in Kyiv and understood that mom was going to Donetsk, Mariupol is still very close to all this territorially – how was this experienced when you're sitting in Kyiv and grandmother lives there permanently...

ОК: You get used to it. Well, when you're 22, you don't just have an emotional background. There are, of course, young people who are receptive, emotional. I wasn't like that, most likely. I always had this setting that I should model good things in my head, and bad things I block out. I didn't have fantasies on the topic [that] everyone will die now, now it will hit my house. Since childhood I have a block on these negative pictures, I block them out. I still block them out, it's such a childish confidence that if you block them in your head, then it actually won't happen. Didn't let the fantasy develop – it didn't come true. I can't say that I allowed myself to fall into panic, into hysteria. It's, you know, like a lottery that you watch. We now call shelling a lottery in my circle. Well, lucky – unlucky, there's no rule. There's absolutely no rule in which you can say: "And here it's definitely safe." Maybe it's somewhere in the metro, and even that's questionable, you won't live either. I don't remember being in big emotional stress. In general, in that period my psyche was so blocked that we'll continue talking, I say this very often, I'm not embarrassed, how I lived in Donetsk, how I reacted to everything there, but I wasn't stressed. I was in a non-standard situation, in which I even wanted to figure things out and better understand how everything really is, what's happening and what I can do. Probably it helped me that in Kyiv I was just observing. You know, you're now trying to deepen me, return me, but for me it was like one second. I don't remember anything. I remember two pictures there. I don't remember anything else. I don't remember how I walked around there, I probably walked around every day, went out on the street. I don't remember a single dialogue. I remember 2014 very poorly, really very poorly. I remember it in pieces, there are probably 15 of these pieces, and they're absolutely without dialogue, contentless, these are just pictures. It seems to me my psyche just preserved me a little and continued doing so.

КА: That's a completely understandable reaction of the psyche. I just don't know how much what memories were preserved, so I'm trying to understand if there are any fragments there, maybe important ones. And now we'll move definitively to returning to Donetsk. Considering that you spent summer in Kyiv – from the outside it's always not very clear what's happening in the city, because the news background distorts the picture a bit. Do you remember if it was scary to return or in general with what feelings [you went to Donetsk]? If you don't remember anything, that's also absolutely normal, that's also an answer.

ОК: We always traveled with anxiety then, because it was scary to return from the point of view of these comrades with weapons. We passed checkpoints, I later had big experience crossing checkpoints in different directions, but then they were uncontrolled. We saw many times how they just picked on people for nothing, absolutely nothing. The only anxiety was – crossing the checkpoint. Conditionally, everyone cleaned their phone. I'm talking about "LDPR" checkpoints. I can say that I also had unpleasant stories with Ukrainian checkpoints, but Ukrainian checkpoints, there were Ukrainian border guards, military, police. You still somehow understand that there's some law there. But at these "LDPR" checkpoints there was no law. Moreover, they often stood somewhat haphazardly, in home clothes. These were rural men, not always prosperous, and you needed to communicate with them very carefully. You absolutely couldn't with them... You either stay silent or agree. I had one moment when we were still traveling. Then many people who lived in Donetsk either moved to work in Mariupol, [there] institutions moved, or traveled from Mariupol to Donetsk. And I remember, we were traveling by bus, and one of the checkpoint representatives very strongly harassed a very beautiful woman, thank God she stayed silent, said absolutely nothing, answered questions, but he was just provoking her terribly, apparently to detain her and unclear for what further. He was picking on everything and it was clear why. She did the right thing then, not reacting at all. Since then we [developed] the skill of how to behave correctly at a checkpoint. This was the biggest anxiety – to pass the checkpoint. We even often texted: "We passed the checkpoints." Passed all checkpoints – that's it, everything's normal. Further everything's normal.

КА: And did you already understand that the situation was like this when you first entered Donetsk after Kyiv?

ОК: Yes-yes, of course.

КА: Why? Because you had already seen all this before leaving or because your parents told you?

ОК: Everyone tells, people travel after all. Mom especially traveled often, and she told about it there. Everyone knows that checkpoints – this is your direct contact with a representative of a military formation, it's not about meeting a person with clear instructions there. That is, purely human factor. I say, checkpoints – this is always the most dangerous thing there is, especially in occupied territories, because they have a lot of rights, they're almost unlimited. No one will scold them for anything, punish them for anything. That is, conditionally, they'll act for security purposes, and that's it. And no one will do anything. And you won't have any rights.

КА: You, again, may not remember this, it's normal, just say so. When you were returning to Donetsk from Kyiv for the first time, did you have some internal instruction about what to do at a checkpoint?

ОК: Yes, of course. We didn't take anything provocative, that is, you delete some [posts], make your phone not new, but absolutely neutral. I had Donetsk registration, so they had no complaints about me. They could torment people with Kyiv registration a bit or with registration from non-occupied territories. I traveled then by regular bus, got somewhere, I don't remember now, I think to Volnovakha. Trains still went there. Then the bus collected people, it carried them through checkpoints. I remember that on my first arrival in Donetsk absolutely nothing happened, I didn't remember this moment. Simply later there were so many moments when I had experiences about checkpoints that the first entry was definitely erased.

КА: So you entered without problems at checkpoints, everything most scary is already behind you by feelings, it seems that this is the most difficult stage of return. So you arrive in Donetsk, which you hadn't seen for, it turns out, about three months. What had changed?

ОК: Of course. First, on one hand, you're happy because you arrive in your native place. In two months, even in three, little changed. Well, somewhere you see consequences of shelling. But in the city center there are very few of them, you needed to really look for them. You're traveling, all windows are taped, much fewer people than usual. There's no youth at all, mainly these are elderly people, some older ones, there's absolutely no youth. Nevertheless, you enter, in your yard everything's normal, in your apartment everything's the same. From this some personal feeling in your city, it didn't give me the feeling that the city changed very much, because at that moment it hadn't changed yet. It changed much later. Really visually you enter and understand that this is already something else. But I wasn't there since '16, so I can't say how it is there. My friends who traveled, acquaintances, they said every year, [that] the further, the more irreversible these changes. That is, the city is really unrecognizable actually.

КА: And so you arrive in Donetsk, circumstances flow together in such a way that you get drawn into volunteer activities. How did this volunteer activity happen, what did you do, and mainly, what and whom did you see? You traveled with humanitarian aid, with things, what people did you encounter, how did this, maybe, change your perception of what was happening?

ОК: Very much changed, by the way, yes. I was and am a very pro-Ukrainian person, then I was really very radically pro-Ukrainian. But for me, possibly as a person who thought that I would someday be a journalist, it was interesting to look at the truth, how it really is, how it looks. I was in a very large number of places in Donetsk and Luhansk Oblast, I probably traveled to practically every settlement. I was in the Spartak area, this is near the airport. I was in Petrovsky district, in Staromykhailivka, these are on the Avdiivka direction extreme settlements. In the first moments we worked with bomb shelters, of which there were many around Donetsk, on the outskirts. People lived there, they lived there for months, years and then, subsequently. I had a very big contrast. I saw very simple people, very simple people who became victims of war, they were all very different, these were families with very small children who lived in terrible unsanitary conditions in these bomb shelters and didn't go anywhere, were afraid to leave, afraid to leave their homes. There were many elderly people, very elderly people, who, it's understandable, wouldn't have left anywhere. At the same time, a huge number of foreign media and journalists came to Donetsk, and we were, as a volunteer group, people who helped with stories, took them to locations. I met then, at that moment, so many celebrity journalists from around the world, whom I [before] could only see on the internet, read somewhere, but here they were sitting right there and sometimes even interviewed me, and we drove them somewhere. For me this was a real super-adventure and cool story, because that's probably how I imagined journalistic work, that you work in some hot spots, in dangerous places, you show people's stories. We as an organization very actively maintained Facebook and pages. Since we were inside occupied territories, there was a lot of interest and attention to this, we could tell the truth. For me then this became some kind of stumbling block, that here I am in a place where I see everything and can tell the truth.

КА: This feeling that you can show the truth and, probably, you can also help people at the same time – did this become some kind of, probably, very key value?

ОК: Yes. In general, volunteering in the first stages, it intoxicates. It intoxicates almost everyone. You feel some rightness of your action. People in the first months are very grateful to you. Later they'll then criticize you, that it's little and wrong, especially if you try very hard. But in the first months you're a savior, you're a wonderful person, and you feel yourself that way, you're sacrificing yourself and going to a dangerous place, bringing people food, they're grateful to you, sometimes medicine. I don't want to diminish the role of volunteering here, because we really drove to very dangerous points and got under shelling. When the blockade began, we got medicines that people were deprived of, insulin and so on. This is important work, but it's a bit intoxicating and it needs to be given certain space. This is what we didn't repeat in 2022. Well, we repeated it, but already more professionally, not from the point of view of volunteering. I didn't leave then because I felt myself in the right place: I'm in my city, I'm engaged in important work, we help people, we show the truth, while we're pro-Ukrainian and pro-Donbas. I understand people, I understand their way of thinking, even if we encounter conditionally pro-Russian oriented people. But as an organization we're kind of neutral, well, initially a volunteer structure, then a public organization. We were neutral, and it was important for us to show the human face of everything happening, that people stand behind everything and it's all about people, for people. We wanted to show how people in Donetsk Oblast, in Luhansk Oblast suffer from war, that often accusations against them [that] they called for war, support occupiers – this is unfair, they couldn't do anything, they didn't choose this.

КА: Now we'll talk a bit more about how all this transformed from volunteering into some structural organization. But it's very interesting and important for me to catch this moment. You return to Donetsk, in Donetsk you have, let's call it a cocoon, some place of yours that almost hasn't changed. But at the same time you travel to villages, to bomb shelters, where it's already very scary and very hard for people, and at the same time you tell foreign journalists the truth about what's happening in the war, what's happening now in Donetsk and in Donetsk Oblast, in Luhansk Oblast. And this is probably very scary. It's impossible for me to understand this, probably, but how is this experienced? Were you scared at all to be engaged in all this?

ОК: No. I wasn't scared a single day in that period. Everything was interesting to me. I was on some feeling of adrenaline. That is, they'd say to me: "Let's go there!" – "Let's go!" I was scared during detentions, I had them, then it was scary. Well how? It was scary post-factum, but in the moment you just react and that's it. I can't say that I experienced fear. I was scared there once. We came to Kyivsky district, this is close to the airport, brought humanitarian aid. And it was very noisy, shelling was very close. And we were in such a house, in a five-story building, khrushchyovkas they're called. You understand that there's no safe place here, the house, it will collapse like a house of cards and that's it. And then when it lands close, then you feel it, then I was [scared]. I remember, that day I was scared all the time. Often you arrive, again you arrived, entered a bomb shelter – you have a feeling that you're kind of safe. Managed to return – normal, to the city center, we had an office there, in the city center there was very little shelling. I was on a very big adrenaline rush, everything was interesting to me, I wasn't scared. I was in an adventure, somehow my psyche then built that I'm in an adventure and that I'm immortal and nothing will happen to me. I traveled everywhere. I had a lot of such situations at that moment that I would never in my life get into now, because it's not worth it, there were many such really borderline situations. But then I'm 20, from 22 to 24, nothing scared me, I was this... It's called an "adrenaline addict," who wants more and more.

КА: You just said that there were borderline situations that you would never, ever get into now. What are these situations, for example?

ОК: These are situations, first, when you do something thoughtlessly. For example, at the beginning of our volunteer activity, me and my colleague were sent for some reason from Donetsk to Avdiivka to deliver humanitarian aid from one famous foundation. We packed a full car with medications. These are different territories: territory, Donetsk – this is occupied "Donetsk People's Republic," Avdiivka – this is Ukraine. And we're traveling with medicines, syringes and such. They, of course, detained us at the checkpoint, they, of course, arrested us, took us to some Ministry of State Security, interrogated us there. Because it all looked like we were carrying from Donetsk conditionally to Ukrainian [military]. They have everything for military, you can't say "but in Avdiivka there are the same people." Then colleagues said: "Need to deliver, we were asked" – there's some foundation or people, in general, they're hiding at a factory, need to deliver medicine, and we were carrying insulin. We got into a terrible [situation] simply, they interrogated us, it was all super-unpleasant. Then they could put you in a basement, and they did put my colleague in the end, he sat for 3 days, and they released me through acquaintances under guarantee. My mainly scariest situations are connected not with shelling, but precisely with detentions, with contacts with military. This is a lot. On one hand, when we already traveled a lot, we got the hang of it, we knew how to talk to each of them, that is, at one checkpoint, at the second. On the other hand, when you meet some inadequate person, you can just get into big problems. Plus, it's like "harassment" and gender all these stories. Of course, you as a woman, they react to you more easily, they'll laugh with you there, joke about something, let you pass. But this has a reverse side too, that they remember you, then, for example, they ask for your phone number, and you don't give your phone number, and they arrest you and the whole crew again, want to search the car, [point] guns. I had a lot of this. For example, we traveled to some villages, walked around some shelled schools, shelled buildings, you don't know if it's demined or not. You travel to frontline territory, where shelling can be every day. To justify that you're going to help people – well what do you think, people won't survive without your package of food? Well really, honestly, no. People, by the way, have a very good ability to survive in super-difficult situations. I don't want to give an example, but people who were in Mariupol for more than a month without water, without food, without access of humanitarian organizations, survived without basic, excuse me, [things]. It's understandable that these were terrible conditions, these are terrible events. But at the same time, a person has very big adaptability to survival. And sometimes volunteers travel to places where you no longer need to travel, we had quite a lot of this. Also, I'm saying, it seemed to us that we're doing good work and therefore everyone should support us, love us and help us. We, probably, some higher powers supported, loved and helped, because no one during that time got under shelling, wasn't hurt, when they detained us, it ended more or less well.

КА: Detentions – this is very traumatic. Here I can approximately, yes, understand, I have quite a big experience of detentions. In other circumstances, but still. When I remember, conditionally, how they detained me for the first time in 2014, it's very scary at first, because you don't understand at all what will happen to you. Will they release you peacefully because you're a twenty-year-old young girl or, excuse me, will you be fucked. How were these first detentions experienced? How did you adapt to this situation?

ОК: Detentions always scared me, because I don't like people in military uniform at all since then, despite the fact that I personally have nothing against military as people. But people in military uniform caused some rejection in me for a long time, because I was quite often a victim of the game I was playing myself. You understand why you cross checkpoints, you communicate with all of them. Sometimes these were very good acquaintances, people who understood, accommodated the situation, sometimes not. They detained me, I think, four or three times. I was probably scared at the very last [detention]. After it really covers you to trembling. When colleagues sent me to this Avdiivka from Donetsk, I called, really yelled and said: "What kind of setup was that at all?" She's much older than me. Why didn't anyone think that this is generally a strange story when we do this? There were moments, for example, when Ukrainian military stopped me and they took the driver to one side, me to the other, interrogated him their way, me their way. There were moments related to corruption, when they asked us for money for some things. In Ukraine I could, for example, turn to a lawyer, to a jurist, write a statement, we could say this in media, this was also shown. It's clear that in "Donetsk People's Republic" there definitely, definitely, definitely wasn't such a thing. They didn't control media yet until mid-2015, because they were occupied with military actions, there were many foreign journalists, write what you want, go where you want. They later started introducing censorship. But here there were no problems from their side until mid-2015. But in the moment of detention itself you're not scared, but after – yes, after – yes. I also had a story of my last detention, in February 2016, when there was also my expulsion from that territory. That was the scariest, because it was Ministry of State Security, this is Ministry of State Security. Before this one of my colleagues [was arrested], she was already sitting two weeks in a basement. And then, at the end of 2015 – beginning of 2016, they had already banned international journalists, then banned international humanitarian organizations, and then started dealing with local humanitarians. And we also got caught, they detained us, expelled us, if in general about the organization, arrested, took all property. Specifically for me this was probably the most unpleasant period, because, first, all my colleagues who were older than me, who could, like before, call somewhere, solve something – the same people still remained in Donetsk, often in some state positions the same people remained. We know each other, they often told us: "These are volunteers, they're outside politics, don't touch them, let them help people." But then this no longer worked. I had a story that Ministry of State Security detained me together with my colleagues, one was sitting in a basement, three were deported, that is, taken out in cars at night beyond the checkpoint that same day. And they told me: "You're still like young and they used you here for political purposes, so if you don't engage in anything here now, you can stay in Donetsk." And I, in short, was still engaged in something anyway, especially since we have one person sitting in a basement, this is Marina Cherenkova, her mom and I went to different instances, wrote statements to free her – on what basis, where is she? Then we passed some packages. Then it was really super-unpleasant, because they kept me under control, that is, Ministry of State Security employees could call me and ask: "Where are you?" I say there: "And I'm at the store." They say: "We'll drive over now." You come out, they say: "Get in." I remember that I was then at a meeting with one international organization and they just called me. And my phone is trembling in my hand, and the international organization itself is alarmed, scared, and says: "We finished the meeting with you, please, – like, – goodbye, leave." And you always think that internationals will somehow protect you, that they're like a worldwide respected organization and so on. This is a myth, that it seems to you that now you're under their protection, now they'll stand up for you – no. You get in the car and it's unclear where they're taking you, you go somewhere. It seemed normal, they drove me, asked something. What was there for them to ask me then – unclear. Probably they actually thought that we're some spies or someone else. Maybe they were just doing their job. But in the end they deported me too. Two weeks they allowed me to stay around, and then when I was making another delivery of help to my colleague, there food and such, they said there: "Come in, write a statement that you're informed" – with guns they escorted me, took my things and took me out. But I was ready for this, actually, there were different scenario developments in my head, but I was ready. I had packed things, I also took my dog. My colleagues then drove after me, they dropped me off beyond the last checkpoint, and they picked me up and already drove me to Mariupol, I stayed at my grandmother's then.

КА: Now we'll move to this, it's just some separate big thread. I want to talk a bit more about the time when you were in Donetsk and were heavily engaged in volunteer activities. I'm very interested, when detentions happened, still not such harsh ones yet, yes, unpleasant, terrible, but not yet basement-level, not deportation ones – what did they ask you during these interrogations? What were their interrogations, questions to you about in general?

ОК: I don't remember anymore, honestly. They were somehow without specific [questions], there was nothing like that. That is, they mainly asked "What are you doing? Why did you end up in the place where you ended up," they checked your phone. I had people at that moment who got me out of there, conditionally like a crazy girl who does volunteering, they also worked [in agencies] then. These are my very old acquaintances. If someone ended up in a basement or someone was arrested, they always stood up for you, [someone whom] parents or colleagues know, whom you can call. They say: "Our volunteer was arrested" or: "This person was arrested." The interrogations were strange in Ministry of State Security, when this was already the final detention, but before this they just told you that you're a fool, checked your phone, and: "If you behave badly again, you'll be sent to the basement." But there was nothing extreme, nothing really scary. I'm also very communicative, I can strike up a conversation with people, plus, these are military, these are men. I had an algorithm, I crossed checkpoints almost every day from occupied territory to Ukraine to buy medicine and something else. I was so trained to talk with them, I could so easily change my manner of communication, that this gave us the opportunity not to stand at checkpoints – they considered me just a girl who travels around there, helps someone, treats dogs, treats cats, that's all. They didn't take me seriously, so they often released me and reacted calmly to me. Especially since there were many volunteers, the volunteer movement – it's big. It existed on that territory too, and there were those who traveled back and forth. We weren't the only ones like this. We were very active, so this wasn't a new story for them.

КА: And you say you had an algorithm. What is this algorithm for communication with people who work at pseudo-checkpoints?

ОК: We often needed, for example, to pass faster, buy medicine and return. When big queues started, you choose with your eyes which of them you'll negotiate with now. This worked at all checkpoints regardless of the side, conditionally speaking, of the conflict. What you'll say, how you'll dress, how you'll communicate. I had an algorithm, I really knew [what to do]. It's hard to explain, it's more built on psychological factor, what you feel. For example, sometimes you feel that you can choose the youngest one, who stands and opens the gates, conditionally lets people pass there. You negotiated with him, drove up, and while others are busy, he let you through. And he got really lost, couldn't refuse you, [you] asked, really-really-really-really need to pass. Sometimes, on the contrary, you need to approach the main one and talk about the seriousness of your mission, show documents, some papers, purchases. That is, it's very different, very different. I had a story when checkpoints still worked and were there, you could bring in cargo. Then already, at the beginning of 2015, I think, I don't remember the exact date, the blockade of occupied territories from Ukraine's side began, when it was impossible to bring in any goods officially. And everything disappeared in Donetsk. While they restructured to the Russian and Belarusian market, everything disappeared, including medicine. And people just poured to us, who vitally needed these medicines, we went for them. Including we brought some cargo, because in Donetsk it was very expensive, it was easier for us to go somewhere, conditionally to Volnovakha, buy food there, some medicines and bring to Donetsk. And I [unclear] stood with truck drivers in line with a filled declaration, we were volunteers without a stamp, without anything. I explained to the Ukrainian border guard about what I'm carrying, my goods. This was very-very strange. And it only worked because they all laughed at me and said that "if you pass through on a truck next time, we'll let you through." Although there was absolutely no basis to carry this cargo. Then everything changed every day depending on the movement of the frontline. So here my task was – I needed to bring people medicine. I wasn't the only one like this, we met other people who, for example, carried psychotropic drugs for relatives, if these are people with certain illnesses. There was a woman [there], I met her, we crossed the checkpoint on foot with her. Sometimes it happened that they didn't let our cars through, but on foot you can get in the nearest car, pass, they'll drop you off somewhere, then drive you back. She went on foot every week in exactly the same way from the village, she bought psychotropic drugs and hid them in a wig for her sick brother. She walked like this every day, we talked with her while walking. So it's not that I did some unique things there, this was a system, we just did this as volunteers, as an organization. It was difficult that everything changed, every 3 months it changed, rotation happens at checkpoints. You just got acquainted, just started traveling normally, bang! – changed, everything anew.

КА: Let's stop a bit on the organization. How did "where should I take things?" and a couple of trips to different people who need help – how did this turn into a big, as I understand, structural organization? How did it happen that all this got going for, as I understand, practically 2 years?

ОК: Well, we as an organization have been working for 9 years.

КА: No, I mean at that moment. ОК: Look, I wasn't the one who started the organization, there were four founders: that was Enrique Menendez, Marina Cherenkova, Dmitry and Evgeny Shibalov. These were Donetsk residents, they created, they called themselves the volunteer group "Responsible Citizens", they lived in Donetsk then, stayed in Donetsk, posted some stories on Facebook about help, collected money. Regular, standard volunteering. But at the same time, they already in August started working closely with Rinat Akhmetov's foundation and with various international organizations that were just wanting to enter the territory, so to speak, as they call it, of military conflict - territory where international UN structures start working, other charitable foundations that accumulate budget and then provide humanitarian aid in territories where military actions are taking place. They usually look for local representatives, volunteers, some NGOs [editor's note: громадська організація - civic organization], to understand how to enter. And so these four founders of the organization, they, actually, in August-September started being conductors of this very help that was coming from international organizations: where to take it, how to take it, how to organize work, what needs. We became the first organization that was a conductor - not organization, but volunteer structure still then. We at the same time had very large donations from people who supported our activities, [they] sent to cards, transferred money. Everything starts with the fact that, for example, you have elderly relatives left there, many had them left in Donetsk, someone asks to help them, you help. Then information grows, and people who sympathized with people of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, in occupied territories, in our case. In territories controlled by Ukraine, we weren't working yet, we only worked Donetsk, Donetsk oblast, Luhansk oblast, occupied territories. People who sympathized with civilians, there were very many in Ukraine, and in Russia, and abroad - help was coming. Accordingly, international organizations at first worked with us also as with volunteer structures, they transferred boxes with help to us, we delivered them, did some reporting. And then there already arose the need for this to be some kind of project activity, for us to have financing from them, because the biggest thing is transport expenses, this is human resource, volunteers cannot be volunteers constantly. Probably by the end of 2014, we already started somehow thinking about how we can use project money as well including. Actually, this led us to the fact that we registered as a public organization in 2015.

КА: In Donetsk?

ОК: No, we're not in Donetsk, we registered in Kramatorsk, in Donetsk it was already impossible to register anything. We registered as Ukrainian organization "Responsible Citizens", which is also "Відповідальні громадяни", which is also Responsible citizens. And already started planning our activity. Before this, in 2014, we worked as a volunteer structure separately, and if it was project activity, we worked in some other foundation. We did the same thing, just received salary, some small one to pay for transport from the project that was going. But there was very much activity, we worked at that moment with Rinat Akhmetov's foundation, and with the organization People in Need, and with UN structures, and with UNICEF, and UNHCR. In general, this is a big system, we worked with many there.

This lasted somewhere until the end of 2015, from mid-2015 active closing of international organizations began. They didn't stop working there, they didn't stop providing help, but official representation and independent work they had only until the end of 2015. Now the rest is done by a different scheme, it's very controlled, but still this help is there.

КА: I now feel and catch that at first on such adrenaline, even endorphin, despite the war, excitement, it wasn't scary at all, well personally for you, not in general, of course...

ОК: Uh-huh.

КА: At the same time as adrenaline flowed into very conscious activity, more structured, also parallel to this the situation kept getting worse and worse...

ОК: Yes-yes.

КА: Can you try to describe this? I want to understand how this built up. If honestly, to my greatest shame, all my attention was riveted to Crimea and to Crimean Tatars. I didn't pay such targeted attention to what later became ORDLO. I didn't even know that in 2014 international organizations still had access there.

ОК: Until the end of 2015 they calmly traveled, as did international journalists. We had, for example, your independent media working, both Kanygin came there. Very-very [many journalists came] even close to mid-2015, very many journalists from "Novaya Gazeta", in general, then worked and had access almost right to the frontline, which is generally hard to imagine. A certain evolution passed there too.

КА: That's exactly what I want to catch.

ОК: I, again, will say that I'm not a historian, I'll tell only about my impression.

КА: I understand. I need only your experience, I understand that it's [impossible] to know everything.

ОК: Starting from 2014 there weren't some strict rules, that is structures were forming and there was certain anarchy. On one hand, I felt free and calm, because I had, for example, my Donetsk registration and my right in general to be in this city and in these territories. I was simply doing a good, noble deed, I'm helping people, I travel, here are packages, here's my passport, I'm not doing anything such...