Ma’am, brace yourself — we’re going to pass you through the window

КА: Katya Alexander

БЗ: Bogdan Zuyakov

КА: Let's start with your volunteer work in hot spots. Can you tell me how this volunteering story began for you, how long ago, and how you decided to travel to hot spots?

БЗ: Actually, my volunteering didn't start with hot spots. On February 24th, I saw an announcement from our city council that people were needed to help with city work: setting up checkpoints, reinforcing hospitals with sandbags. And from the 25th, it turns out, we started building checkpoints, then moved on to reinforcing hospitals. Then in March, humanitarian aid started coming to the city, train cars, trucks. We started unloading humanitarian aid, going around the city to distribute it, if there was a possibility to drive, we delivered it. If not, we delivered it on bicycles, just walked on foot. We gathered a group of people, like-minded individuals who worked with us. At first there were about a hundred people, then everyone scattered, about 20-25 people remained in our permanent team. And since the beginning of summer, they already saw us, that we were doing this, delivering humanitarian aid around the city. Then communities or some, let's say, people who cared about villages from which they had evacuated started contacting us. They asked us to bring humanitarian aid to the frontline. Back then the frontline was still along the Seversky Donets, along the river. And we covered the entire frontline territory along the Seversky Donets, delivered humanitarian aid.

КА: And your city, do I understand correctly that it's Kramatorsk?

БЗ: Yes, yes, we're from Kramatorsk, but we also deliver humanitarian aid around the city, but mainly in small volumes and exclusively for people who can't receive it. These are people who can't walk, disabled people, or completely elderly people who don't have a phone, for example, to register for humanitarian aid. We all understand that even with a normal phone, not everyone can manage to go to the website, fill out an application form. We just asked on our own, being in some kind of relationship with the executive committee, for them to allocate somewhere around ten, twenty, thirty rations per week that we delivered to pensioners.

КА: These are mainly frontline cities, as far as I understand, yes? I saw Bakhmut...

БЗ: Mainly, yes, yes, exactly in volumes – this is already for frontline cities. There we took requests, for example, how many people remained in the village, and for each person we brought packages of humanitarian aid.

КА: I understand that telling about almost a full year of full-scale war is difficult, but for January, for example, the last month, how are things in the frontline cities? What condition are people in, what's happening, what do you see?

БЗ: If we start small, let's say, de-occupied territories, where I mainly traveled recently. It turns out, Liman, Sviatohirsk and nearby villages, settlements. There, in principle, it's relatively quiet, normal. Of course, you can hear the war is nearby anyway, you can hear explosions. But people have already learned to live with this. They definitely walk around in a passive state. They're being helped, many volunteers go there, [they bring] humanitarian aid, food products – full, you could say, volume: from the most insignificant to some good canned goods. Also clothing completely: from helmet to outerwear. For children diapers, toys, clothes. In principle, we provide people with everything. In my opinion, there's enough humanitarian aid, people are happy at least that they're not forgotten about, they're cared for, people always come and help.

КА: People who remained and survived occupation in the de-occupied territories, how are they in general? You probably hear many stories from them.

БЗ: Many people are afraid to tell about how they survived all this, because we all understand... War, not everyone can fully tell their story. Maybe they're still afraid that the war hasn't gone far away. Maybe they're afraid that it will return again, that they'll be seen, punished for any words. Mainly, they survived and that's the main thing. As long as there's no war, let's say. That's the most frequent thing I hear, it's: "as long as there's no war, as long as they don't shoot, as long as everyone is alive and healthy." To say about some obvious side... At least, I meet all patriots. There's such a tendency that I'm exclusively in circles of all our people, lovers of Ukraine. We're for Ukraine, we do everything for her. Either I don't find contacts, or, God grant it's always like this, I don't see any separatism, nothing like that. Either they skillfully hide from me, well, let it be so.

КА: I was rather asking about people who specifically tell about the horrors they had to survive during occupation. That is, about the consequences of Russian aggression.

БЗ: Yes, here's the very essence of war, it's all murders. Very many people lost homes here, homes are still okay, but they also lost families. How much grief there was. For example, we came to Sviatohirsk, a woman with two children, a little son grew up. The father was killed, and he was born a week later during the occupation of the city. And then the battles for the city were just starting... of course, it's all horrible to listen to... People tell all this, maybe it's already just healed over. Quite some time has passed already, it healed over, they tell everything easily. But, of course, you still hear it and understand how horrible it all was. War is not just a word, as many, for example, in our Kramatorsk don't relate to the word "war" with proper, let's say, understanding.

КА: And can you tell about this in more detail? Because Kramatorsk is not exactly far from the frontline, as far as I understand.

БЗ: Kramatorsk is not far from the frontline, missiles arrive, just like today at night, today during the day. Everything arrives, but, it seems to me, people still don't fully realize what war is. We don't really have evacuation from the region, it's very such, weak. If we compare with the beginning of the war, when there were hundreds of buses, dozens of trains, which took away thousands of people per day, now taking out a hundred people from the region per day is very little. Everyone somehow got used to this. But, unfortunately, for example, we come to Bakhmut and see these explosions not a kilometer away, not just dull booms somewhere far away, but we already feel them on ourselves, when everything is a couple meters from us. There, of course, the understanding of exactly the word "war" is absolutely different. War serves for killing. And, unfortunately, at least it seems to me that not everyone fully understands this, and the fact that they don't want to evacuate – this is a very big problem.

КА: And can you try to describe what's happening in Kramatorsk in recent months? How does Kramatorsk generally live, what condition is the city in, how often do missiles arrive, what condition are people in?

БЗ: Missiles arrive quite often with us, every week one hundred percent we practically have some arrivals. Mainly, it all goes to industrial zones, to factories, or to some warehouses, just to some empty buildings. At least, I don't see these being some military objects, no, they just shoot at some buildings. Maybe they assume someone might be sitting there or something like that. It's just some method of intimidation, I don't know. It's just as long as they hit somewhere, as long as they shoot somewhere, to frighten people. Regarding mood. Yes, mood, I think everyone's is positive, we all understand that victory will be ours. Here people still return, they still establish life. Some work appears. If in March we had very few people, 30 thousand for the whole city or 20 thousand, you go out on the street – and there's nobody, now it's already a lively city. Of course, not like before the war, but it's approaching that.

КА: And at what moment did people start returning to Kramatorsk, by your feeling?

БЗ: After they liberated Kharkiv Oblast, Izium, Liman, this significant part was liberated and they said there would be gas. Many left because of the unresolved gas issue, whether there would be heating. Because no one really has a solid fuel boiler, it costs such money that during war you can't buy this, when you're already surviving on your own reserves. And many left. As soon as they said there would be gas, immediately a flow of people started returning to Kramatorsk. And gradually-gradually, I think, over two-three months it returned to such a normal state. About 80 thousand, maybe even 100, now already live in the city.

КА: That is, this is somewhere, it turns out, from the end of September – beginning of October, yes?

БЗ: Yes. Right when they liberated Sviatohirsk and Liman on September 9th. Right after these dates in mid-September people started returning.

КА: It seems to me, though, that Liman was liberated closer to the beginning of October.

БЗ: Maybe, these memories are already blurred, it was a long time ago.

КА: That is, in the last 4-5 months Kramatorsk is more or less returning to life?

БЗ: Yes, exactly so. It's returning to life and lives just the same. There's humanitarian aid for people, some kind of work is found. Of course, not in such volumes as before. Factories don't work now, but still people have adapted to this.

КА: And can you try to describe this return to life, to understand how Kramatorsk lives right now? What works, what doesn't work, where are there significant problems, and what has returned to its former state?

БЗ: I probably couldn't even say this, because all my attention is focused on volunteering and I don't have, let's say, time for life, so I could evaluate how and what changed, where and what requires some corrections. All time just goes to volunteering. Especially now, we started traveling to Bakhmut, these arrivals. It takes up a lot of time and energy.

КА: And missile strikes in Kramatorsk have increased now, yes?

БЗ: It seems to me, yes. Especially for us, not especially used to strikes on the city, exactly in the city center, this is generally some kind of nightmare, like yesterday.

КА: Yes, we'll move to that now. I still want to understand – Kramatorsk is quite close to the frontline, and this war is felt, it seems to me, even on a sound level. Why do people feel the war differently in Kramatorsk than a little further away? It's clear that in Bakhmut it's a completely different situation. But you said that people somewhat irresponsibly relate to security, for example, yes? Why does this happen in Kramatorsk?

БЗ: I think it's because of habit to all this action. Already from the first days of war we started hearing explosions. The same Bakhmut started a little later. But still, when they started storming Liman, that part of the region which is beyond the Donets, we heard all these explosions of shells, all these flashes. And these flashes didn't stop for long months, and they still don't stop to this day. It's just that before we heard the side of Liman, now we hear the side of Soledar, Bakhmut. Constantly this audibility, although, maybe, in some way this is also good. We have confidence that nothing will reach us, everything will be fine here, the guys are protecting us and, let's say, there are reasons why to be calm in this regard.

КА: How is it in general with air raid alerts in Kramatorsk?

БЗ: Mainly, our alerts happen already after strikes. It's just that how long does a missile take to fly to us – it's a matter of a minute, maybe two minutes. The siren doesn't have time to react, usually five minutes, two minutes after the strike is the siren. We hear them too often to react. At first, I remember, at the beginning of the war we, for example, are unloading a truck, we hear the siren, we went to hide. Now already somehow... this is not good, this is bad, but such is the tendency. Compared, especially, with other cities. For example, I was in Kyiv for a month. There people react absolutely differently to sirens, they go down to the metro, they somehow more responsibly relate to this. Most likely, this is all because of habit, because all this is too frequent [in Kramatorsk], a lot and you can't hide forever.

КА: Yes, that's true. And I also want to learn a little bit about you. I read that you're an athlete. In general, before the full-scale war you lived your whole life in Kramatorsk, yes?

БЗ: Yes, yes, I was born and raised in Kramatorsk, I do sports, I work as a taxi driver.

КА: Arm wrestling, yes?

БЗ: Yes. I started from first grade. Either gymnastics, or boxing, or swimming, then weightlifting, and stopped at arm wrestling. In 2017 I performed at the World Championship, took 13th place, this was in the youth category under 18 years. Well and also, in principle, I continue doing arm wrestling. Now it's just that first the pandemic, then now also war. I can't travel to competitions, because either there are no competitions, or everything gets disrupted with preparation. Because volunteer daily life is very exhausting, and then there's no strength at all for training. If even strength is found for training, then the body won't be in the best condition after all this at that moment.

КА: And what else did you do before the full-scale war? And do you have enough time now for anything besides volunteering?

БЗ: Before I worked as a sports photographer. I photographed competitions, published posts – who took what place in the city, in the region. Mainly about athletes from Kramatorsk. For activities besides volunteering now there's absolutely no time, because I gave all of myself to this cause. If some time is found, it goes either to some training in medicine, in mine safety, or to some meetings, agreements about humanitarian aid, so I can deliver something somewhere. This is exclusively volunteer daily life.

КА: And does your family stay in Kramatorsk?

БЗ: Yes, yes, I live with my parents. They told me from the first days that they don't want to go anywhere, everything will be fine. In principle, their point of view hasn't changed to this day, they don't want to leave. Although at the beginning of the war I suggested going somewhere abroad, I already have elderly parents, they didn't want to, they said: "Our home. We'll be here." Well, everything stays the same.

КА: And how are they in general, what condition are they in?

БЗ: There's no such condition of something. They continue to enjoy life just the same, that everything is good, that everyone is alive and healthy, at least in our family. Understandably, when a strike happens or I go somewhere on a trip to the front, this is all very hard for them. They worry, they're concerned, especially if they see that some volunteer dies. There are already many such cases, especially in 2023 this series of troubles began, many volunteers left us. And we all understand, this is one big family. And they see that I'm worried, then they worry about me. In general, you can't live peacefully when there's war and sons are not aside from war, but exactly where all this is happening.

КА: Sons? You're also with brothers or a brother?

БЗ: Yes, my brother also does volunteering, we also travel everywhere as a whole team.

КА: It seems to me this helps a lot.

БЗ: Yes, of course. We're all for one cause, all united by this. This, of course, brings the family together. This is both a volunteer family like this, and at home the family is more united, because this is all one idea, there are generally many points of contact. This is really very good.

КА: Considering that you often travel close to zero and to hot spots, isn't it scary for you to travel there? How is this generally experienced?

БЗ: Of course it's scary. Especially if there are certain settlements where there's only one road there. And you understand that they're definitely watching you, they see you from a drone, they can adjust fire on you. It's scary, but no fear can replace a sense of duty. I know that there are people, people are waiting, people need help. We got into different situations. Both shelling, they shot at us, and we miraculously left alive. But still, after we return from the front, this is all already with a smile, because we're alive and healthy and did important work. This is the main motivation, probably. We know why we go there and that we help people. We see exactly on the front, in frontline cities, frontline maximum return from residents who receive this help. They sincerely rejoice, you see these words of support, gratitude. Communicating with people, all these stories, how they survive all this – this all very much touches and makes you travel more and more and help people.

КА: And in general do such villages and cities receive much humanitarian aid?

БЗ: Let's say, frontline cities... Different volunteers reach them, but this also all depends on the situation. There are villages where volunteers don't reach at all. Let's say, three-five houses – this is already some village for them. Often volunteers forget about such villages. First, this is not profitable for them from a media point of view. We all know how now Sviatohirsk, these are very beautiful places, everyone knows about them, everyone hears, a lot of humanitarian aid goes there, but neighboring villages are often forgotten. But we try to cover all villages completely in the de-occupied territory. For frontline villages it's a bit more complicated, because there's an offensive going on in that direction, there everything is much more serious, they shell more strongly. Where we manage to get through, we get through too. Other volunteers get through too. Quite often you can ask, volunteers travel, they pass help through military personnel, military personnel already distribute it on the spot in villages. There is humanitarian aid in any case that reaches practically all villages. Of course, in different volumes. Where it's easier to deliver, there they bring more. If it's some Liman, Sviatohirsk, everyone goes there, everyone helps, it's just done without problems, without any risks to health. Many volunteers also travel to Bakhmut, but what they bring, I don't understand. I talked with many people in Bakhmut, many don't have things, many ask for both food, and clothes, water – there's a request for a lot of things. Considering how many volunteers travel there, I don't understand where all this humanitarian aid goes. Either there really are so many people that this volume isn't enough. Or it's somehow delivered only to the same places and they don't reach basements, exactly where people live. There not only at points of invincibility, but in practically every house there's a basement where people live, take shelter from shelling – they also need help.

КА: Let's move to what happened tonight. Can you recall in detail where you were, what was happening, how you heard the explosion, that is, try to reconstruct everything that happened?

БЗ: By time it was probably ten to 10, maybe quarter to 10 in the evening. I heard a rumble, like from an airplane. From experience I immediately understood, this is not an airplane flying.

КА: And you were at home?

БЗ: Yes, I was at home. Already, you could say, I was getting ready to sleep, to rest. I heard that it was flying over me, I managed to step behind a wall at that time, I understood that it was flying in the direction of the city, and I heard an explosion. Right in that same minute I called an acquaintance who presumably lives in that area, in the city center. I called, asked how things are. He says, it hit nearby. I immediately got dressed. We generally have curfew starting at 9 until five [in the morning]. But under such circumstances, I think, the police don't ask much about such things. I quickly got dressed and already at 10 I was at the place, and my friend, he had one block to the strike location, he was already at the place at five to 10. There wasn't yet emergency services, nor paramedics, no one was there yet. Everyone was just starting to arrive. My friend, he's a volunteer from our team with which we travel both to the front and unload trucks. In general, from the first days of war together. I had to travel further from the settlement to the city center, he managed to bring out three residents from the destroyed house [while I was traveling]. It wasn't strongly on fire yet there. I arrived already at 10 o'clock in the evening, and we started also bringing out [people] with him. Mainly there were pensioners there. Until emergency services arrived, we brought out 7 people: grandmother, then grandmother with child, grandmother with grandson, grandmother and, maybe, son, and elderly grandfather.

КА: I would like to ask you to stop at the moment when you arrived at the house. When you saw what happened, can you describe the picture of destruction that you saw? Everything that was before your eyes.

БЗ: You could say that this was shocking, because half the house is gone, everything is burning, everything is smoky, there's a stench of gas, some panic, people are screaming from balconies. This, of course, is terrifying.

КА: With such descriptive elements as people screaming from balconies, smell of gas around – can you try to remember such details, everything you saw.

БЗ: The very first thing I saw – this is destruction, that half the house is gone. A four-story house, half of it was gone. Second – these are people's screams: "Save us, help us, we can't get out." Also I saw burning cars nearby, the smell of this gas. Immediately the realization in my head that fire with gas – this is generally a scary thing. Then, not to say that these are correct actions, this is excessive heroism. We with partners, we were three at that moment already. When we started hearing cries for help, that help was needed, we, not paying attention to the gas, to the fact that we walked near a broken gas pipe, burning cars were nearby, we still went into this house to pull out victims. This is all on such shock... Just shock, need to urgently help, adrenaline. There everyone quickly ran to quickly help, but now, analyzing this, it was, of course, very risky. Such things, of course, shouldn't be done, this is more of a bad example.

КА: But I think that then there was no time for thinking.

БЗ: Yes, 100 percent, then there was no time for thinking, we did everything as the heart said. We ran to pull out, we did everything successfully. Exits from the entrance were practically blocked in all entrances. We carried people from the second floor down over debris. Already somehow we started carrying them out. It turns out, the first three victims my partner Kolya carried out even before I arrived, and then we already three together, started pulling out the remaining people, an ambulance already arrived, emergency services started arriving. We already passed people into the hands of the ambulance so they could provide first aid, because we understood there are people in the house. Screams continued, they shone with flashlights. Immediately we ran to examine every apartment, every entrance of the house. In the end we quickly ran around the house and heard a cry for help from the debris. We immediately all stopped, emergency services ran up. Following Dnipro experience, we did minutes of silence, heard that there really is a person under the debris. At that moment it seemed to us that he responded as Valentin, but subsequently it turned out that his name was Konstantin. He was lying on a sofa, a slab was pressing him. But he was breathing, talking with us, everything was fine. We immediately started, we pushed all business aside for later. We understood that now our task is to save the person. We started digging out. The problem was that 4 floors fell in this place. A lot had to be cleared away. We [were there] from 10 in the evening, it took us literally 15 minutes to take away victims who were mobile, we just carried them out through windows, everything was good. And 2 hours we tried to dig out Konstantin, he communicated with us, everything was good, but in the process of us throwing aside [debris], we had already prepared stretchers, everything was ready, we were already very close, a collapse happened. We dug from two sides. Some people dug from the first floor deep into the debris, and there was a group from above. At that moment when the collapse happened, everyone from the lower floor left, thank God, at least no one was dragged down, everything is normal, alive and healthy. But after this Konstantin stopped... We stopped hearing him, immediately a lump in the throat, such... I can't even describe this feeling when you kind of understand everything in your head, but you still want to hope, believe that this is all not what you want to think. We started, continued digging, and dug until two at night, then we had a break for half an hour, because the siren started wailing. There was a threat of missile strike. By this moment we, it turns out, for the first time took our eyes off the house, already saw that very many people are helping, and along the edges of the house everywhere there are very many... Help was maximally provided from all sides. Everyone worked, a volunteer tent arrived, they started [distributing] hot tea, coffee, sandwiches. Well done everyone, worked like a coordinated mechanism. A tent, immediately you could warm up, while the siren wailed for half an hour, we could warm up. Then somewhere around half past two we again started debris removal, and around half past three... No, this is most likely already 4 in the morning, the house collapsed for the second time. It turns out, the first floor collapsed into the basement, and again miraculously the guys survived, stayed on top. We could pull them out, and, unfortunately, we saw a lifeless body.

КА: This was Konstantin?

БЗ: Konstantin, yes. Subsequently it turned out that he has a wife, director of school 24 in Kramatorsk, she also died at that moment. And again for two hours we tried to pull out the body. Only at 6 in the morning, after we pulled out the body, I told my guys: "End of operation, let's go home," – because, as they told us already, there seem to be no people. Then they started clearing with an excavator already and searching more thoroughly, more deeply already into the basement. From 10 in the evening until 6 in the morning we dealt with debris removal.

КА: And when you heard Konstantin calling for help under the debris, you were together with emergency services already?

БЗ: Yes, yes, with emergency services. When we heard, I can't say. Then different guys already started approaching, and my volunteers were there, and most likely emergency services were there. This all somehow happened at one moment, that we heard a cry, immediately a minute of silence, determined where he is, started digging. Hope was enormous, of course. We all believed, did everything that was generally in our power. Still, of course, the feeling after this collapse – can't be described in words. This was horrible. Unfortunately, this feeling arises in me for the second time already. The first time this was April 8th at the railway station, when we also in the first 5 minutes, 10 minutes arrived at the railway station, started helping people, carrying out bodies, loading victims into cars. And we approached the electric train that was standing at that moment at the station, we heard a cry from it. We ran up, we were also with emergency services then, we ran into the electric train. We needed about 3 minutes, probably 5, to open the door. It opens with difficulty. Five of us opened it, and while we could enter the electric train, unfortunately, the person was already gone. This was also a maximally bad feeling, because you understand in your soul, you want to help, you do everything for this, but, unfortunately, this isn't enough. Some guilt on yourself, why everything is like this, and not differently. After all, everything could have ended well somehow.

КА: And how do you generally cope with this feeling, how do you process it?

БЗ: I don't know. Most likely, I don't process this, I haven't processed this. This feeling still lives in me, that this is how it all happened. All this is unpleasant to remember, this is all painful. Plus our volunteer activity itself is created to help people, and when such things happen, a person leaves, somehow you're providing this help, but this is all hard. This every time... Yesterday immediately a lump in the throat, can't even say anything, you just stand and for 5 minutes you realize... You just don't want to believe and that's it, and you just stand in stupor, what's next.

КА: And how do you find strength in yourself after such things to continue doing anything at all?

БЗ: If we don't do this, then who will do it for us? Now it's our duty to help people. And I think, after the war we'll remain to also help people. And we need to show by example that our unity is in this. War united us all so much, I would never have thought before that it's possible to be so united, to work like one mechanism for one goal. And my volunteer team too, we're already such a coordinated team – a unified mechanism that breathes the same way. I think, you can, looking at this, be proud of the fact that we created such a team that always, in absolutely any moments, can come to help.

КА: This is really very important, and probably holds you very strongly.

БЗ: Yes, I'm proud of my team in general, of everyone who came yesterday, this brought me to tears. I understand, here we have war, this is a threat to life for everyone, they still came. They sacrificed their time, night, especially it's cold, water, this is fire, everyone got soaked. But still everyone did really maximum of their work.

КА: And did all team members come?

БЗ: Practically all, except for those who really live far away. From the settlement they wouldn't travel by bicycle at night. But absolutely everyone responded. At the moment when we were clearing debris, they called, said: "Bogdan, let us come." Here I already told some of them, end of operation, because traveling by bicycle in ice or running on foot, 3 kilometers, 5 kilometers – this would be complete murder for them.

КА: Of course. And can you tell a bit more in detail about the process of how you both pulled people from floors and cleared debris? How does this generally happen? You don't have special equipment, no special tools. How does this happen?

БЗ: Actually we do have special tools. We have stretchers. We dealt with and when possible deal with evacuation from hot spots. We have practically everything to transport people. But at that moment, when we arrived at all this nightmare, there wasn't even a thought about running for stretchers. We rushed without anything. We just carried in our hands quickly. We entered an apartment, found a grandmother there, took her in our arms and carried her out through a window, carefully went down over debris, carried her outside so she would be further from gas and it wouldn't stink anymore. There we moved away 30 meters from the house so everyone would be safe.

КА: Well, and passed them to volunteers already...

БЗ: Yes-yes. The first three victims, there wasn't anyone yet, subsequently they provided help if needed. We saw a grandmother, asked how things are – normal, can you walk – you can walk. We took her in arms and quickly carried her away, because there's still a threat of gas explosion. This presses on the psyche so much, immediately you want to do everything faster and everything in that spirit. Regarding how we found... We enter an entrance, shout: "Is there anyone alive? Respond!" They respond, or flash us with a flashlight. We find them, then further, if a person is injured, stretchers are already needed, if tourniquets – everything is there, but fortunately on this day we didn't need anything. Everyone was lightly wounded, scratches on arms, on legs from glass fragments, but nothing critical. Regarding debris – brick by brick simply, whatever you took in your hand, you throw that. There 5-10 people are digging, we change, who got tired, who [takes] the shovel, then already a crowbar, and all this brick by brick, piece by piece you throw out, and the process goes. Further, already when a crane arrived, we remove the slab, there already everything is faster, if there's equipment. Hammer, some axe, crowbar helps. If these are bricks, then we break them in half, if this was some brick wall, then we crush the wall into bricks, we throw aside bricks, and so until we find. Constantly, probably every 5-10 minutes we stopped everything and contacted Konstantin. Well, until the moment when we heard him, this was really frequent, when we stopped hearing him already, somewhere once every 15 minutes we started announcing a minute of silence. By three o'clock we already understood that if a person doesn't answer, then there are few chances, but we still announced it 2 times, once every half hour until four, until the second collapse happened and until we saw him, we announced a minute of silence 2 more times.

КА: That is, you until the very end...

БЗ: Yes-yes. Maybe this is also my initiative, because some guys already somehow relaxed, but in this matter you can't relax, because you need to until the very end. Until we found him, didn't see him, we needed to give our all, who knows what. Miracles happen, people sometimes get out of such situations.

КА: Before this collapse he made contact all the time?

БЗ: Yes-yes, communicated. We asked how he feels, is everything okay. For two hours he was in contact with us. He couldn't move. As he said, he was pressed from behind by a slab, but he breathed freely, as far as I understood, talked with us constantly.

КА: Very, very sorry for your loss.

БЗ: This is a horrible tragedy, yes.

КА: This is absolutely indescribable, of course. And this, how you cleared this debris, the consequences of this terrorist attack, how you reacted – is this experience that trips to hot spots taught you? Why did you know well what needed to be done right now? БЗ: This is also experience, considering how long the war has been going on. Plus simply the knowledge of what you're doing, you're not participating in this alone, it's a team. And our volunteers, and the Emergency Service, and the military, and police. Everyone on one team, everyone helping each other out, giving advice when needed. Whoever took initiative, everyone had the opportunity to take command, because this kind of work is like that... Either me, or one of my volunteers, or someone from the Emergency Service always took control, because as a collective you can only work like this, so that everyone has a clear task of what to do. There wasn't a situation where someone just stands there, observing, with nothing to do. Everyone performed their function. This, of course, bore fruit. Everything was very fast, efficient. And plus experience, I haven't been helping in such extreme conditions for just one day, I've had to collaborate with the Emergency Service as a volunteer more than once. Here with us, if forests are burning, if there's some other fire, we always come to help. All this experience, of course, accumulates. There's no situation where you stand and think: "What do I need to do?" - everything is already worked out automatically. This is experience both from the war, and simply from volunteer activities that existed even before the war, when we put out fires, extinguished forests, houses.

КА: And can you tell me about this thing: when you were talking about the minute of silence, you said that the Dnipro experience taught you this...

БЗ: I saw on social media, they were writing that you need to announce a minute of silence so you can hear the victims who are under the rubble.

КА: The recent experience of the terrorist attack in Dnipro, can we say it modernized, that's not the right word, but somehow changed the approach?

БЗ: I don't even know. Maybe there were some differences, it's just that we already understood the mechanism itself, how it all works. We understood that if some slab is lying diagonally there, we knew what it could lead to. Most likely, precisely watching the news from Dnipro gave us [this knowledge], this communication too. A really large number of people came, everything was very coordinated. No one stayed on the sidelines. They approached, immediately started helping without unnecessary words. Precisely in terms of speed, time means a lot in such a situation. This was maximally productive. How many times that evening I asked myself the question, why like this... You're just watching the tragedy in Dnipro, and here in your city it's the same thing, just a nightmare. What is all this for? And what is all this for, for the people who were in these houses, who were simply resting? I won't find an answer for what, why everything is like this.

КА: Yes, unfortunately. And can you try to remember what condition the people you pulled out were in, those who were alive, what physical and psychological state they were in?

БЗ: Absolutely different. We met a grandmother, she's a real live wire, she didn't give up, she said: "Boys, I can manage everything myself." She moved around on two walking sticks, sprightly, she was flying ahead of us. Such a grandmother, wonderful, and she cheered us up, and we cheered her up while we were getting her out. She helped us in every way. Fear plays a big role when a person is afraid there, grabs on, interferes with evacuating them from the place. But here the grandmother herself knew what needed to be done, just super. There was a grandmother who got very frightened, but she was slightly wounded, shock, of course. It was a bit more difficult, so there was clear commanding: "Grandmother, pull yourself together, we're doing this and that now, we're going to carry you through the window now. Try not to grab onto the frame. We'll do all this, don't worry." In general, different difficulties happen, people are absolutely different. Everyone reacts in their own way. Some kind of real superheroism from the grandmother, amazing that on two walking sticks! You know, we approach her: "Grandmother, how are you there?", and she says: "Everything's fine with me, boys, I'll come out myself now, really, just stand and watch." This happens, of course, shock, stress, plus all these wounds, not understanding at all what happened. Some still shout: "Take my dogs, cats from the apartment." They worry about their pets, about their apartment, what will happen. Everything leaves its mark. How to evacuate there, difficult, not difficult - everyone perceives it differently.

КА: And physically what condition were they in, how serious were the injuries?

БЗ: Thank God, they were light. At least those we saw had light injuries. There, maybe shrapnel just cut the hand a little, the leg, but nothing critical. Later, as we worked, from rumors that reached us, there were seriously wounded people. I understand that either somehow we missed this, or somehow while we were in one entrance, in another entrance they were bringing down a seriously wounded woman. I can't tell you who was seriously wounded there. We saw the dead too, but in terms of precisely those we saved, thank God, everyone was in normal condition.

КА: And is it known how many wounded there were?

БЗ: The news wrote 18. I didn't have the opportunity to actually look, browse the news, because today only at 6 in the morning I came back from clearing rubble, washed, ate, then unloading humanitarian aid, two trucks of water. Then immediately to medical aid training, first aid. As a result, only at 6 in the evening I came home, ate and that's it. No opportunity to watch the news yet. Everything I saw was just a glance, or from rumors that were going around during the actual clearing of rubble.

КА: Bogdan, I know you'll start to deny this now, but absolutely heroically, everything you do. I know you do what you must do. This is really very important. And a lot of the rear depends on this too.

БЗ: Thank you very much.

КА: Tell me, is there anything about Kramatorsk, about volunteering, about the terrorist attack in Kramatorsk that you would like to say, but I didn't ask you about?

БЗ: Well I think I told everything, how it all happened. It seems like I told everything about this terrorist attack. Special amazement, delight from the coordination of everyone in general, this crowd of people, huge numbers, I don't know, 100-200 people, 300 people, but everyone works so coordinately, this is just... This creates precisely confidence that everything will work out, we'll do everything. This is just great. The people are simply incredible.

КА: That's how you'll win.

БЗ: 100 percent, only like this.

КА: Bogdan, thank you very much for the conversation. Strength to you, rest. Goodbye.

БЗ: Goodbye.