The owner came out, all cocky, so we shot him

НДП: My name is Natalya Dreval-Pechorina...

(Dog barking – editor's note)

НДП: One second, excuse me...

АП: Everything's fine.

НДП: My name is Natalya Dreval-Pechorina, I am currently in the city of Bravary, Kyiv Oblast. I work in photography, – I'm a photographer, – and I opened my photo school in Bravary recently, several months ago.

АП: So already after the start of the full-scale war?

НДП: Yes-yes, quite recently.

АП: Let's start the conversation about your father. Your father Anatoliy – a person of many talents and professions. What did he do, how did he come to this, what titles did he have?

НДП: Papa was involved in motorsports, was an auto mechanic, a mechanic – really from his youth. He drove a car, probably even in school, even before he could get a license. At one time he taught automotive in school. He was born and raised in Moldova, created his first family there, and then, already after 20 years old, he moved to Ukraine, to Kyiv, and there he met my mama, and I was born.

Before my birth he was involved in stunt work, he was a stuntman. He participated in veteran races until the very end, until the last years of his life, and he was involved in stunt work until my birth. Mama then, when she got pregnant and it was time for me to appear in the world, said that "daughter needs a father, so today will be your last filming." Papa came from filming to the maternity hospital and managed to make it to my birth. Stunt work ended on birthday.

АП: He filmed for the last time on the day you were born?

НДП: Yes, he barely managed to get back.

АП: Amazing, wow. Please tell me, in what films did he appear? Have you watched these films?

НДП: I watched these films. This is the film "Yaroslav the Wise," this is the film "Pirates of the Caribbean" (the heroine made a mistake with the title – editor's note), many others. He talked about it, I, of course, forgot. We sat as a whole family, waited for this film release, it was still a black-and-white television. There something small falls from the wall from a big [height], papa says: "That's me." We're like: "Ah, yes-yes-yes, exactly, yes! Hard to see, of course, but we believe you."

Well and he joked about this topic very much. When the credits went, sometimes they mentioned him, – Anatoliy Dreval, – sometimes not, he's like: "Well see, it says 'and others' – that's 'and Dreval'." They didn't always mention him in films, but we have some photographs preserved where they were putting him out [editor's note: extinguishing fire on him] and all that. And he jumped from Swallow's Nest. So we watched, and papa's like: "There-there, that's me right there." Not that he was in close-up there.

АП: Do I understand correctly that he was not only an auto stuntman, but also manifested himself in different spheres of stunt work?

НДП: Specifically in films he was just a stuntman, not auto. He constantly jumped there without safety harnesses from some walls, fell from some towers... And in his activity in motorsports, in competitions, he got thrown around there and they put out the car and all that. But that was just motorsports – European level competitions and [competitions] here [in Ukraine].

АП: How did he come to cinema? How did he become a stuntman? Did he tell you about this?

НДП: How he came to cinema, he didn't tell. I wasn't there yet, and somehow it didn't come up in conversation. I understand that some acquaintances... At the Dovzhenko film studio he repaired something for someone, most likely, or gave lessons to someone. He drove, gave lessons in emergency vehicle control, – in skid conditions and all that. Earlier this was a novelty: controlled skid, all this... Now this has become popular, in Soviet times this was something extraordinary. Such people were few.

He, of course, was quickly noticed and offered to film once somewhere. And somehow it went from there. I wouldn't say that he went to filming consciously. It was chance, just automotive work brought him there. Of course, he liked it.

АП: Do I understand correctly that he became a stuntman when he already moved to Kyiv?

НДП: Yes.

АП: You said that these types of driving, – this is something unusual for Soviet times. Where did he learn this?

НДП: He learned this himself, independently. Since the experience is very large, and [ability to] control a vehicle in emergency situations comes with experience, so he simply learned this and could already give, based on his experience, this knowledge for money to other people. He didn't study a single day in driving school, joked that "I was born with a steering wheel in my hands."

This just somehow came out organically for him. He didn't even think about it, he says: "I don't think when I do this. When, for example, I don't brake on ice, when I turn the wheel in the opposite direction from the skid, I don't think about this."

АП: So he simply at some point then took his license test and that's it?

НДП: Took his license test as soon as it was possible. He drove without a license in his youth, then, as soon as it was legally possible, from 18 years old to take the license test, [he took it]. From 16, it seems, for motorcycle, from 18 – for auto, and then he raised these categories to truck and to bus. He has all categories open.

АП: And where did he have the opportunity to use a car? Did his parents have a car?

НДП: It seems to me that [his] parents didn't have a car. There was a motorcycle with sidecar. I never understood, was this his initially or did he borrow from acquaintances. [We] didn't talk about this topic. He grew up in a poor family, I don't think they had a car. Most likely, someone let him drive.

АП: What titles did your father have? I read that he was a European champion. Is this so?

НДП: Yes, European champion in automotive all-around. Honestly, I still don't know what this means. Papa told me what this means, that he can participate in all types of auto racing, so it's called "automotive all-around." That is, different types of racing, both buggy and rally, and cross-country, and even vertical... Well, in general, all types of racing that are possible, so he can participate in all of them. He has the title master of sport in automotive all-around of European class.

АП: And USSR champion too in motorsports?

НДП: Yes, that goes without saying. But European class – he was very proud of this, that this is not only USSR, but also throughout Europe. This was for him a separate subject of pride.

АП: I'll clarify one moment connected to stunt work. You said that he finished on the day of your birth. How old was he then?

НДП: It was 1983. How old was he... Papa was born in 1951. I need to calculate...

АП: And do I understand correctly that mama called him directly from the maternity hospital and said that "you're finishing"?

НДП: She said "finish" earlier, papa was like: "Good," – and went. And then she got to the maternity hospital and started looking for him everywhere, calling acquaintances, because "well I'm already in the maternity hospital." And papa, in general, finished-completed everything there extremely. He said that "I didn't think I would make it to the birth, because I had to finish filming, I couldn't just run away." But he says, he was very much in a hurry on this road home (meaning, to the maternity hospital – editor's note), and this was the last...

АП: He arrived at the maternity hospital and you were born?

НДП: Yes, he arrived at the maternity hospital, waited a little, and I was born. They even told me that I supposedly waited for papa.

АП: Amazing. Great. Please tell me, what was your papa involved in recently? As I understand it, he had a buggy center. Can you tell more about this in detail? How long had he been involved in this? Where was it located? And what kind of center is this in general, what kind of vehicles are these?

НДП: This idea occurred to him long ago. He first had his own auto service in Poznyaki, he rented space there in the military commissariat for many years. He has such a character, he can't do one thing for very long. He wants to constantly improve something. He has a very strong character, willful. He constantly thought, what would be better to do, how could he further improve his skills. He taught automotive in school. Everything seemed insufficient to him.

I remember how he would sit down for dinner in the evenings, take a sheet of paper and draw some track. And says: "What if I rent land and I'll rent out little cars? I would make them." He participated in buggy competitions himself, he knew how everything was arranged. He was a first-class engine specialist, he knew the internal structure of automobiles and could assemble one from any parts. He nurtured this idea for a very long time.

Then, the next stage, he found out how, where it's possible to rent this land. And his first location was in Kyiv on the Dnipro embankment, at metro "Levoberezhna," where now Lunacharsky Street is and there's a Greek Catholic church. Right there he had his first location. It was just a couple little cars – he bought them, he wasn't making them yet, – a tent, and he gave [them] for rent by time. Like go-karting, buggy rental. He designed the track himself and dug some... I remember, he got a mini-tractor somewhere, with this tractor with bucket he did everything independently.

АП: Amazing. When was this?

НДП: I had already finished school. This was the beginning of 2000, around 2003–2004 approximately. 2005–2006 even more likely. We told him: "Maybe you'll take someone, some employees? You can't do it alone like this." And he always had a life motto: "If you want to do well – do it yourself." – "From these employees, – he says, – I have more problems from them than benefit."

He was a perfectionist and [had] a very strict and strong, harsh character. Either everything, or nothing, either good, or don't do it at all. Well of course, boys came, students, tried to do something sincerely, but they didn't succeed very well. Papa never held back his words, never holds back, and no one stayed with him long.

АП: Students whom he taught?

НДП: Various. These were both through acquaintances, these were also some boys in the technical school where he once taught. And I always felt so sorry for them, I think: "God..." Many said later, later already, after many years, that "we were in the army, and what we were in the army, this means absolutely nothing after practice with Anatoliy Ivanovich." So papa did everything independently.

After construction of the embankment began, papa started looking for alternative land rental options and found on the Zhytomyr highway "Two Beavers," recreation center. And he rented land next to them. From scratch he started there, dug this track and lived there for some time, especially in summer. Then there too something didn't work out due to some organizational issues. He also on the Zhytomyr highway, only further, closer to village Mila, took land for rent. The last location of the buggy center was there.

Gradually he expanded the range of services. There was already a children's recreation zone, because many came to ride buggies with families. Wives just stood around. Papa made a recreation zone: shashlik, barbecue, shoot from a bow, from a pneumatic rifle, if they came with teenagers. And for the very smallest he built with his own hands a small town like that: children's playground with a swing, with a rope swing, with a slide. So you could come comprehensively with the whole family, so everyone could find something to do. Well and nearby he still had his auto service. He was involved in automobile repair, they still brought them to him.

And he was also involved in making off-road vehicles from Soviet "Zaporozhets" [cars]. He cut off the roof, put different chassis, different engine, from "Zaporozhets" there was only the body, and made off-road vehicles. He even made an amphibian – somehow the wheels inflated, this car could even float. These were such custom orders.

АП: So he made them for sale, by order to someone?

НДП: For sale, by order, yes, such things. Well and safari jeeps from "Zaporozhets."

Correspondent: Do I understand correctly that father was self-taught, he didn't have engineering education?

НДП: He didn't have engineering education, was self-taught. The only thing he asked for help with – was to make him a blueprint. He had acquaintances, certified engineers, he asked to make a blueprint so that this whole construction would withstand the load. And then he already bent pipes himself, and filled with engine of corresponding power, and put on chassis – he did all this independently.

АП: Can you tell more about what a buggy center is, what buggy is in general? I read and understood that these are cars that are assembled by hand for racing over rough terrain.

НДП: You, in principle, described it quite succinctly. Buggy – this is such an open-type all-terrain vehicle. Such arcs go around the entire perimeter of the automobile, safety arcs. A person is located in the middle – one or two. Big wheels, big chassis, bigger than the car body. Needed so that if suddenly the car flips over, so the person is in a capsule. And he's protected above by these arcs, and the wheels protect him, that is, the person absolutely cannot be injured in any way. If you want, I can send you a link to his personal page later, so you can see visually what this is.

АП: Yes, I saw. It's important to me that readers also understand what we're talking about. Not everyone knows what this is. And Anatoliy assembled these cars himself?

НДП: Assembled them himself, yes. Sometimes he bought broken cars and made working ones, and sometimes he welded from scratch from pipes. Really took pipes and welded new buggies. Combined in different ways.

АП: And children and adults can drive these cars?

НДП: There were a couple small buggies there. Regarding children – there was only a height restriction, as I understand it. And children rode with him nearby. They couldn't drive independently, for safety reasons papa had to be nearby. They couldn't even drive next to their own parents. If a child wanted to ride, – a teenager or even smaller than a teenager, 10–11 years old, – papa said: "Okay, but not with your papa, you'll ride with me."

АП: He put the child in his car or just drove next to him?

НДП: He put the child behind the wheel, sat next to him himself and acted as instructor. If the child was very small, then the child sat next to him in the passenger seat, and papa sat behind the wheel.

АП: How long had this center existed? And do I understand correctly that father lived in the same place?

НДП: Yes, he lived there the last, probably, five years. Before that he lived in Kyiv. After my mama he had another civil family, they weren't officially married. He and mama are still not divorced. We have good, normal relations with that family, with my little brother. I have a little brother who is even younger than my youngest child. But we all have very good European relations. Yes, he lived [on the territory of the buggy center] the last several years due to family circumstances, and before that he lived with my little brother and his mama in Kyiv.

АП: How long ago did he establish this center?

НДП: If specifically on the Zhytomyr highway, not taking Kyiv into account, then probably about 12 years.

АП: You said he lived with another family. They divorced from your mama, right?

НДП: They separated from mama, but didn't divorce. But they still maintained relations both through me and directly. Mama even maintains relations with papa's second wife, third even (before Natalya's mama her father had a first marriage, so the wife whom Natalya initially calls second is actually the third – editor's note).

АП: I understand you. Let's move to February 24th. How did your father meet the war? Do you remember the first conversations with him on this matter? Didn't you suggest that he leave? Because by age, as I understand it, he could leave.

НДП: Even before February 24th this was in the air and we, of course, talked about it. He was very agitated, worried, each time told us: "Where are you walking?! Go home!" I understand that he communicated with someone and someone... mmm... Well, someone influenced him correspondingly, in such a "neurotic" way regarding the war. Maybe even his third wife, – they communicated closely, and girls, women, they're very emotional... He called me all charged up, said: "Do you know what's approaching?"

I constantly calmed him down, said: "Papa, let's not bury each other ahead of time. If it's approaching, it's approaching, if it comes – then we'll solve problems as they arise. You calm down. Everything's good with us: we're walking around Kyiv." My attitude influenced him, I understand, even more than anyone else's attitude, because he loved me very much. I'm his only youngest daughter: he has two sons, I have two older brothers and one younger (probably Natalya misspoke, and Anatoliy has three sons – editor's note). He loved me very much all his life. Even when I was already an adult, and really this, I'm his beloved daughter, he only called me "sweetheart." "Natasha" – that's when I did something wrong. This could be counted on the fingers of one hand – "Natasha." Otherwise – "sweetheart."

And when he called me agitated and said [these things], and I calmed him down, he immediately changed instantly, like: "Oh, I like your, your mood," "Oh, well good, good that you relate to this that way." This influenced him positively.

Then, of course, after the 24th, when all this began, papa changed very much for the better. He lived on the Zhytomyr highway. On his fence it said "Buggy Center" – you drive by, it was really visible, he really lived on the Zhytomyr highway. He very closely... mmm... interacted with checkpoints, with territorial defense members who were stationed there. He delivered bottles for Molotov cocktails to them on buggy, repaired cars when someone broke down there, delivered gasoline to them. He felt like he was directly related to all this, and this motivated him very much. When everything began, he had in Ukrainian "піднесене настрій" (elevated mood – editor's note). Completely changed for the better.

Of course, then, when all this approached them, rolled right over like a steamroller, – it was visible how they were moving and sweeping everything in their path, – of course, we said: "Come on, you move, come here [to Kyiv], move somewhere." Nearby our guys were stationed on an APC and repeatedly offered him to leave with them. He refused, and this was his conscious choice.

That is, it wasn't as if accidentally he didn't manage, wanted to but couldn't, – this was his decision, repeatedly this was discussed. He decided to stay and said: "I am in my place." And supported this with different events. For example, a guy was returning on an APC from Hostomel airport, damaged, shot through, and his engine stalled right near papa. Papa invited him to his place, gave him lodging for several days. [This guy], military, was taking the family of his, I understand, commander to a safe place. Was returning, came under shelling. And said that "I thought I wouldn't make it alive. I never would have thought that tonight I'd be safe, warm." Direct quote, you can change this [for publication]: "I never thought that today I'd be sitting drinking in warmth with someone. I thought I wouldn't return alive." Papa repaired his APC and in two days sent him to his unit repaired. This inspired him very much, he wasn't planning to leave from there anywhere.

АП: Natalya, can we pause for a minute so I can get the charger, literally not even disconnecting, and I'll return to you, okay?

НДП: Yes.

АП: Thank you.

НДП: We can return. We stopped with you on the story about the military man on the APC who was returning. Was this the first case when your father began repairing [military] equipment and working with military? Or before this he already had such experience?

НДП: Honestly, I don't know. This is the only case he told me about. He didn't tell very many things. And throughout his whole life, when some work moments happened, he didn't tell very many things. In general terms I knew that he helped people from territorial... territorial defense members who stood at checkpoints. What specifically, he usually didn't elaborate. I know, [helped with] gasoline, minor repairs... But he didn't say: "And I made an engine for someone today," "And for that one I made this today," – there was nothing like that. He was stingy about such things. And this, apparently, was such a case... A person lived with him, and papa decided to share. How many there were, I don't know.

АП: And when did this case occur?

НДП: I think that in February, around the 26th through 28th. Because in March there everything was already very, well... There were practically no more of our people in March, there everything already... left and offered papa to leave, and papa refused.

АП: What did papa tell you about your offers to leave? How did he react to this?

НДП: He simply refused. He refused and didn't explain reasons. When something happened, he provided some help, he said: "Natash, today I delivered so many bottles for Molotov cocktails to them," "And today I refueled [a car]. A person broke down on my highway," "And today a shelled APC came to me, I repaired it – well how can I leave?" Then he stopped talking about this.

АП: If I understood you correctly, at first he related very anxiously to everything that was happening, and then he got involved in helping, began helping military?

НДП: Before the war, when all this was filled with rumors, he was very anxious. And then, when the war began, he saw that he is a participant on Ukraine's side and brings some benefit. He was very motivated and inspired. Really with the beginning of war he changed to such some... mmm... well, different position, such a conscious one. He often told me: "I am in my place. I don't want to leave anywhere from here, because I feel that I am in my place." What did he put into this? Well, probably this possible help that he could provide from his side.

АП: Did he tell you, did military themselves begin approaching him, or did he first show initiative and begin doing something?

НДП: Sometimes one way, sometimes another. I remember, he said that he both drove himself and provided help himself when he saw it was needed, and often they came to him and asked for something. Papa gave either parts or gasoline.

АП: In your post you also wrote that he painted over signs. Can you tell more about this again?

НДП: At the very beginning then, when he was delivering Molotov cocktails, he then told that "And we with the guys today, I drove on buggy with paint, painted over signs." Signs that are located before entering a populated area, indicate how many kilometers to which populated area, schemes how to drive to [a specific] street in Kyiv. This they all painted over, so as not to help the aggressor side orient themselves in unfamiliar terrain.

АП: Was this around the populated area where his center was located, or did they drive along the whole highway?

НДП: Range, kilometers I don't know. I understood that he drove to Kyiv, to Kyiv's entrance, and probably in the other direction, opposite, also for some number of kilometers. How far, I don't know, unfortunately.

АП: And Molotov cocktails did he make himself or did he simply bring some components for military?

НДП: Brought both bottles and fuel and fabric.

АП: Did he say what kind of military these were specifically? Was this some unit that was located nearby?

НДП: He didn't say the unit name. I know that territorial defense definitely stood there and somewhere nearby, not on the highway, stood Armed Forces of Ukraine, some detachment, I don't know. [They] offered him when they were leaving in early March, when it was already clear that [Russian forces] were coming here, and it was already pointless to stay, they offered papa to leave with them, but papa refused. That is, [there were] territorial defense and one Armed Forces of Ukraine post of some kind, specifically who, I don't know. In general we talked very little about this with him. From the 24th to March 3rd very few days simply.

АП: You wrote that when father was offered to leave on an APC, he refused and called everyone to say goodbye.

НДП: Yes. But on an APC they offered him, I understand, in early March they were leaving, and he said goodbye on March 3rd. He called everyone, I was then on a train to Lviv. That is, they had already left and had already been absent for several days.

АП: You mean the military?

НДП: Yes, Armed Forces of Ukraine, who offered him to leave. They were already absent for several days there by this time. And papa called, I understood, for another reason. Either he saw Russian military, because he had a very alarmed voice, as if really he... Either they entered immediately... I can only guess. Because according to the protocol he was executed precisely on March 3rd. I can only guess that possibly he saw them and understood what he needed to do next, and before this he called everyone. This is my theory.

АП: Can you tell more about this conversation? What kind of conversation was it? What did he tell you?

НДП: We then with daughter tried to get on an electric train to Lviv. There were very many people, just incredible crowding. And papa and I always had such an agreement that if he calls and I don't pick up, then he doesn't call back again. I see that he called, and I'll always call him back. If he calls back, this means something urgent and I should take the phone right now.

I hear some call going, I physically can't pick up, I have a dog in my hands, I have daughter nearby. We got on this train, and then I already took the phone and see that I have 11 missed calls from papa. Well there was never such thing, never such happens, 11 missed calls. I then understood that something happened.

I started calling him back immediately. He was very agitated and spoke very quickly, and told me to also speak very quickly. "I only want, – he says, – to ask if everything is okay with you." I say: "Yes, papa, everything's fine, we, – I say, – are on a train to Lviv." And he didn't know about this, this was our spontaneous decision.

АП: He didn't know you were leaving?

НДП: Yes, this was decided very quickly, a couple hours before departure. And after these words he simply changed so much in the conversation, he... Well, he's like: "Sweetheart, wow! I'm so glad!" – with such words, that is, completely changed. And as if he exhaled, he's like: "God, I'm so glad for you!" Like: "You did great deciding this! And is Illarion with you?" – this is my son. I say: "No, Illarion, – I say, – decided to stay." I say: "Generally shocked by this situation," – because he promised to come, didn't come, stayed by such deceptive means. He never wanted to leave, but wanted us with daughter to leave.

АП: You're talking about your son now?

НДП: Yes. Papa asked if son was with me, I say: "No, son stayed. Promised to come to us at the station, but didn't come." He decided to send us off this way, because I told him I wouldn't leave without him. He said: "Good..."

АП: He was supposed to come to you at the station and you were supposed to go with him and daughter together?

НДП: Were supposed to go together, yes. This is a separate story. He [son] said: "Get on the train, we'll meet at the border..." – well, in general, by any means wanted us to get on the train and leave. And then, when we already got on the train and I call him, he says that "I stayed home and didn't leave anywhere and won't go, mama, as I wanted before. The main thing is that you left. Thank you, thank God."

I convey all this to papa. Papa says: "I'm very proud of him, I'll call him now."

Well and the story with son [is such]: I say "let's go," and son says: "Mama, women and children should leave, and men should stay." I say: "Well you're 16 years old, you're a child, let's go." He says: "No, I, – he says, – am a man." Well, in general, this was the phone conversation with son.

АП: Son lived separately from you, that's why you were in different places?

НДП: No, son lived together. He simply went to see off his girlfriend at the station, who was also leaving for Germany. Then said: "I'll get on with her, and we'll meet at the border in Poland, you go mainly, and I'll go." And then it turned out that he simply returned home from the station.

Papa then said that he would now also call him, that he's very proud of him. And then called him. Son told me that he [Anatoliy, Natalya's father] said that he loves him very much, that he's very proud of him. He practically told everyone that he loves very much the person he called. He called my brother. Started calling everyone-everyone. And after this I wrote to him on Viber, he already didn't receive the message... I then called him back, and he already wasn't picking up.

Disappeared from network, this was around one o'clock in the afternoon. And at 4 o'clock he appeared. All messages went through, became read but unanswered. And then disappeared from network for a long time. That is, such a feeling that... Papa would always have answered. He saw that someone wrote, – if it had been him, he would, of course, have answered everyone who writes to him. But such a feeling that a person who took the phone looked, removed the SIM card and inserted another. That is, everything viewed but not answered, and no one returned to this account anymore. Such was the situation with the phone.

АП: That is, when he called you, you didn't perceive this as farewell? He didn't say that he was in danger or anything like that?

НДП: Didn't say he was in danger, it was felt. I perceived this as farewell. I told him: "Papa, we're [going] for not long. Don't worry, we'll meet soon. I'm going to Lviv literally for just a little bit. When all this ends, I'll come right away." And it seemed to me that he started crying at that moment.

And when I say that "We'll see each other soon," in my head the second thought immediately, instantly, that "we'll never see each other again, Natasha, most likely." I don't know where this thought came from, but really I perceived this as farewell for some reason. Then I didn't know, of course, for sure. But I had such a thought immediately, that probably we'll still never see each other.

АП: This was March 3rd?

НДП: Yes.

АП: And you then left for Lviv, and then further moved to Europe?

НДП: Yes, to Lviv, then to Poland, and then it happened that acquaintances invited us to Paris, to Paris suburb. We lived in Paris suburb for 3 months.

АП: How did you learn about what happened to papa?

НДП: We lost contact, and we... mmm... began looking for him by any means, being in Lviv. I already didn't know who to approach and even contacted Lviv territorial defense, I say: "Maybe you have some acquaintances on the Zhytomyr highway in Kyiv with territorial defense? I'll give you the deployment location, let them come look. I'm looking for a person." With my acquaintances, Facebook friends, they distributed information through local groups: Mila, Mriya, Stoyanka, all this. And around the 9th...

Everyone comforted me, told me that there they simply knocked down the tower and there everyone's without communication: "everything's normal, soon everything will be found, everything will be good." Indeed, many were found, indeed, there was no contact with many because there simply was no mobile communication.

Then already, being in France, on March 9th a girl called me on Facebook, on messenger, and said that neighbors contacted her, who lived next to papa, clarified what kind of car papa had. I told her. And they said (apparently meaning that she said – editor's note): "Natash, I have, – she says, – bad news. They told me that papa was executed." She, of course, didn't see all this, this neighbor, but on March 5th...

АП: This was a neighbor who lived near the base that papa owned?

НДП: Yes, yes, this was an area of private sector, so there were neighbors nearby.

АП: Please clarify what the village was called?

НДП: The village was called Mila. Since there are two there, Mila and Mriya, the buggy center was called "Mriya" from a marketing point of view, it sounded better, buggy center "Mriya." Actually it was located closer to Mila and territorially belonged to Mila.

And the neighbor said that on March 5th very late in the evening a drunk Russian soldier broke into her house and said that he's now nearby, "we're now your neighbors," "you have a buggy center here, we now live there," "there you had... there was an owner, we, in general, came...," somehow he expressed it like that... such either brazen or such... mmm... well, like reckless. "We came, dogs attacked us, we shot them. The owner came out to the sound with a screwdriver in his hands, like brazen, well, in short, we shot him too." The neighbor didn't see this, she heard dogs whimpering, and she heard shots too, but with her own eyes she didn't see this.

I, of course, naturally, I believed this anyway, but I didn't speak and decided not to tell about this to those who were in Kyiv: my mama, my son, my brother. I decided not to tell anyone until I make sure of this exactly. Naturally, I also didn't tell my daughter in France. And this was probably the hardest, – when you can't tell anyone about this at all. And my daughter, she... When I found out, on that very same day they took us on an excursion to Paris, and she was delighted by it all, walking around taking pictures. I shouldn't have shown that something had happened, because she would start asking questions. And I walked around with her and also expressed delight and played the role that everything was fine, so that God forbid she wouldn't guess anything and start asking questions.

The only person I told, called, was my husband. We also have good, normal relations, but we've been living separately for a long time now. I called him and told him. And I called my friend and told her, because it was impossible to keep all this inside. And of course, I told them not to tell the others until I found out for sure. I wasn't planning to tell anyone until victory, but when they retreated and [I] felt easier, especially when other evidence surfaced, I, of course, gradually started telling people.

I gradually prepared both mama and Illarion, that "well, grandfather disappeared, but they found someone who looks like him, we don't know for sure yet, we're waiting...". Then, a couple days later, I would say: "Well, most likely it's still him, but we'll wait a bit more..." – so that it would be smooth, not like how it all crashed down on me, so that it wouldn't be some kind of shock.

I created a Viber group of papa's acquaintances, so that we could publish information together at once and so everyone would know, so we wouldn't have to write to each one individually. We searched for papa together. And one day, a month later, in early April, after April 7th, I wake up because someone threw photos at me in one of the messengers. In the preview you could see [the message]: "Look. Seems similar."

And I open the photos, and there's a photo of a burnt corpse that really does look like papa. This was, of course... I understand that these are men and that they relate to this somehow, maybe not the same way, but this was a big shock for me.

АП: This was a chat in Viber that you created to search together with papa's friends and colleagues for him?

NDP: Yes.

АП: And someone in this chat sent a photo of a burnt body and wrote that it was probably him?

NDP: Well, they didn't send it to the group, they sent it to me privately, and then duplicated it in the group too. The person was registered in the database of unidentified bodies. There was a database of unidentified bodies, where people who had lost missing people were registered and looked, monitored, whether there were any among the dead. Unfortunately, there's no other way to find them.

And one of the acquaintances saw that it looked similar, and territorially the location – the village of Myla. And he really did look similar... There was a hit on the house and it all burned afterwards. I understand that when they killed papa, he fell on his side. One part of this person was preserved very poorly, and the other part was preserved quite well. From the part, the side that was preserved quite well, we could understand that this was papa.

Then of course, we went for identification and...

АП: Had you already returned to Ukraine at that point?

NDP: I was still in France. Papa's last wife Valentina urgently went for identification. This needed to be done very quickly, operatively, and I was in France, I couldn't come operatively and quickly. She identified him by special marks: scars, teeth, it all matched.

Some time later he was cremated, and papa, well, waited while I would bury him in the form of an urn, when I would return from France, which is what happened.

АП: You said that you recognized papa in this body, in the burnt body.

NDP: Yes.

АП: You saw some familiar marks?

NDP: Yes, yes.

АП: What was it?

NDP: Hands. Well, first of all, of course, facial features, but, you know...

АП: That is, they were preserved?

NDP: Half was preserved. He was lying on his side, the half that was toward the ground was preserved, and the one on top – it burned, it was poorly preserved. And the hand... Papa's hands were such big, characteristic working hands. The shape of fingers, the shape of nails, the overall size of the hand [matched]. He had very big hands... The last such criterion – it was by the hands, yes.

АП: You started telling about how you returned to Ukraine and buried the urn yourself. Was this your decision, that no one should bury your papa [without you]?

NDP: I wanted to cremate him, but unfortunately, they couldn't wait that long, because there were so many bodies coming in. I was very upset about this, and my brother cremated him with papa's last wife. Mama couldn't come, mama is weak in terms of health condition and emotional state. I very much wanted to do this personally, independently. I couldn't come. I had other valid reasons. And I will maybe tell about this separately too. This is a separate conversation.

[I wanted] to at least bury the ashes personally. And not just bury them. At that time journalists contacted me, people who wanted to write both a book and articles about papa. And I very much wanted the maximum number of people to find out about this, and for those journalists who wanted to talk with me to come to the funeral, for them to film this, for them to go to the place of his execution, for them to film there, what condition it's in now.

I wanted this to not just be the funeral of a person who peacefully departed to another world, but for it to be unusual, for it to be like a hero's funeral: with journalists, with publicity, with some kind of story. I wanted it to be like... well, like the burial of a hero. That's why I wanted to do this personally. Of course, no one there would have been able to deal with this – neither with journalists, nor with any other questions.

АП: When did the identification happen and when did the funeral happen?

NDP: Somewhere in mid-April, probably, the identification happened. He had been lying in the morgue for quite a long time. I wanted, I very much wanted to do everything quickly and come, I couldn't manage it. And so they cremated him in May, and then another month later, in June, the burial already took place at Baikove Cemetery. I very much wanted this, for it to be specifically at Baikove: our relatives lie there.

Well, in general I usually didn't care where they would bury me, where anyone... We have someone lying at every cemetery, it turned out that way. But the circumstances of death are like this, and I wanted it to be specifically Baikove.

АП: In Kyiv?

NDP: Yes, in Kyiv. For it to be there, where outstanding personalities are buried, unusual people, and for papa to be there as an outstanding person, unusual.

АП: You said that they wanted to write a book about him. Was this connected to his actions after the start of the war? Or was this connected to his past biography?

NDP: No, this is a book about ordinary people who behaved like heroes during the war. I don't understand how people find out about this. I declared that I want more people to find out about this, and this started happening, but how, I have no idea. They started contacting me. A girl contacted me, she's writing a book about ordinary people who behaved heroically in this war. About a woman from Bucha who threw food to someone through a little hole. Without a permanent place of residence. She heard about my papa and wanted to write about him. We'll still have a meeting with her, unfortunately there hasn't been a meeting yet, but she was at the funeral. She gave me a piece from the first helicopter that was shot down in Hostomel, I still have it. And when I make a monument, I'll definitely mount it there, so it will be there with papa.

АП: This is the first helicopter shot down after the start of the war?

NDP: Yes, yes.

АП: In one material about your papa I read that these Russian occupiers, they also lived in this house, in the house and in the workshop. How is this known? Is this true?

NDP: This is known from his words. This person approached and said that they would now live there.

АП: This is the one who came to papa's neighbor?

NDP: Yes. If we assume that he came to her on the 5th – she says he came to her on the 5th – and according to the protocols papa was shot on the 3rd, then they lived there for at least two days. How long they lived there after that, I can't assume, but they lived next to a murdered person for at least two days.

АП: And, as I understand, they then burned down the workshop?

NDP: The workshop remained intact. There was a hit on the house. I first thought that they set it on fire when they were leaving, but then the person who showed us around there, who serves in the Armed Forces of Ukraine and found the body, he said that this is a classic hit. It was right into this house. This isn't arson, this is an explosion. The roof was just broken through there: such a thing doesn't happen from an ordinary fire.

АП: Aha. This person who showed you around, where did you meet him? Where did he come from?

NDP: An investigator contacted me, and from him many contacts. Secondly, one of papa's comrades, he lives nearby, from him many contacts.

For example, there was a stable nearby, a veterinarian person who saw with his own eyes how papa was shot. He said that "if Ivanovich hadn't started cursing them out, they supposedly wouldn't have touched him, but Anatoly Ivanovich came out like that and started...". This is very much like papa, it's even hard for me to imagine how he would have behaved differently. Of course, he would have come out and started... He didn't care what they had in their hands. He came out with a screwdriver in his hands, wearing glasses, barefoot, because he was getting ready quickly, and with a screwdriver in his hands. Well, whatever he had at hand, probably, that's what he took.

I have a lot of contacts specifically from the person who lived in the neighborhood. Well, not exactly in the neighborhood, down the street, you had to go one bus stop. One of papa's comrades. He gave me the phone number of the person who found papa. On April 7th, on papa's birthday, they found him.

АП: On his birthday?

NDP: Yes. And I was surprised: according to the medical, forensic medical expert protocols it was written "тіло знайдено 7 квітня" [editor's note: "body found April 7" in Ukrainian]. I, honestly speaking, was in shock. I first wrote that possibly, they found him even on his birthday. I didn't know that they really found him on his birthday.

АП: ...incredible.

NDP: Yes.

АП: In some text I saw that your father had dogs. And they shot these dogs, and one dog remained.

NDP: Yes.

АП: Is she still there?

NDP: Not anymore. Unfortunately, she disappeared or went somewhere to die, because she went deaf, she started being afraid of everyone. They brought her food, until the very end she came out, drank and ate, and then went somewhere. She made herself a place under the collapsed roof and stayed there. And now she's nowhere to be found.

АП: Is it known to you how many military personnel lived in this house?

NDP: No, it's not known. If I'm not mistaken, either two or three came to the neighbor. This is inaccurate information. How many lived there, I don't know, unfortunately.

АП: What's happening now with the buggy center? Are you planning to continue your father's business, thus perpetuating his memory?

NDP: Well, there's probably nowhere to do all this now, it's just a battlefield there. The whole territory is in craters from shells. The workshop is also riddled with holes, and the house is just burned out, only the walls remain. We transferred papa's car to the front line.

АП: His main car, right? Surely there were many cars there.

NDP: Yes, it survived. The main car was transferred to the front line. Papa's comrade repaired it and transferred it there. Some buggies we also transferred to a children's center, one buggy we also transferred to the front line for modification. Two buggies remain. Now I don't know how all this can be continued. I probably couldn't continue it either, it's very hard and difficult. When I come there, I perceive this place as a memorial, as a monument, as a memory of this incident.

The guys, papa's acquaintances, made a memorial plaque at the entrance to his territory. Along the road there's a plaque with his photograph, with a brief description of what happened, and a brief description of who papa was. I sometimes tie live flowers there. I can't imagine how what was there could be continued.

АП: You wrote in your post that in memory of papa you want to get a tattoo...

NDP: Yes.

АП: Tell me about this.

NDP: Eh... Uh... Well... Honestly speaking, I need to, of course, work out the idea. I'm still looking for a master. I want it to be an unusual person. I've communicated with many in correspondence. Maybe even the quality of work doesn't interest me so much as that it should be a suitable person. I'm looking for sketches, looking for suitable images. This won't be papa directly, this will be a silhouette of a man or a man-like silhouette with wings and with a screwdriver in his hands.

АП: You said that you're looking for a special person – what kind of person should this be? Should this be a person who also experienced some personal tragedy, or a person who participated in military actions?

NDP: Not necessarily. Maybe just someone who would know my story and who would want to embody it, that would be enough. So that it's not just a master who: "Well, why is an angel with a screwdriver?" – well, like that sort of thing. So that they would understand the meaning of everything happening.

АП: You also wrote that papa always wanted you to have a car, and he even after his departure helped you find this car. How did it happen that you never had a car, considering whose daughter you are? And what changed now, what kind of car did you find?

NDP: This is actually the answer to the question of why I couldn't return from France for so long. Although it was very necessary to return, but I couldn't, I was waiting. There was no possibility, because papa bought me a car. It was manual transmission, I drove it very little, literally you could count on the fingers of one hand. Then I got married, had children, and my automotive practice ended there. I realized that I needed a car with automatic transmission.

Papa said: "Okay, I will definitely, definitely buy you a car with automatic transmission. When you're ready, tell me, but I'm always thinking about this." He constantly reminded me that he's thinking about this, he'll definitely buy it, and he's constantly monitoring this issue. The children had already grown up, I could have already started driving practice. And then this story happened.

You know, when grief comes to a person, they need some anchor points, even some primitive, material, mercenary anchor points that they can hold onto and stay in this reality. And then I thought that if papa couldn't do this, then I'll do it for him, as if he's making me happy. Papa loved me very much and wanted me to be happy.

And also then they canceled customs duties, I thought: "I must take advantage of such a moment. How I'll bring it, I have no idea, but I must buy it." And a person helped me a lot... maybe it will work out... or won't work out, at your discretion... for the name, surname to appear...

АП: I understand.

NDP: Vladimir Bogush. He didn't leave Bucha, he was in the basement with his wife the whole time. And he remotely from this basement helped me find a car, connected me with a person from Germany. In other words, how else than that papa helped me do this, I can't explain.

АП: Was this papa's acquaintance?

NDP: This wasn't papa's acquaintance, this was my acquaintance, and moreover one with whom we didn't communicate very closely even. This was a photographer – I'm a photographer, he's a photographer – papa's age, he's about 60 years old. I don't even know to this day how old he is. And he helped me as if papa would have done it. That is, I just wrote, and he contacted me and helped from start to finish.

АП: That is, after papa's departure you decided that you wanted to buy this car in his memory? And you began searching while being in France?

NDP: Yes, as soon as the first shock passed. I have such a character that I can be very strongly traumatized, but then I calm down, and I direct this negative energy into a constructive direction.

I remember, I was sobbing on the floor in the lobby in the hotel where we lived. Then I got up, and right in my brain: "If this has happened, I'll make it so that everyone finds out about him [about papa], and I'll buy myself a car from you [from papa]. This will be your gift, as you wanted. I'll do it as you wanted" – with such thoughts I got up and went to the room.

АП: This was on the day when you found out about what happened?

NDP: Yes. Then I got a job. I wanted to find some ways to earn money. I borrowed a camera – I went there [to France] without a camera – got a part-time job as a nanny. Everything possible, I did, and saved up for a car. I myself couldn't believe that this happened.

АП: That is, you earned money for a car while already being in France?

NDP: Yes, and moreover without spending a kopeck of social benefits, because they were late and then came later.

АП: You earned money for a car while being in France?

NDP: Yes.

АП: Amazing.

NDP: Yes. They fed us there simply, people came, brought food. I didn't spend money on anything at all. My daughter would tell me: "Mom, let's go buy something there." I'm like: "No, we're buying a car." – "But it's only 5 euros." I'm like: "Now 5 euros, then 5 euros, but we need a car."

АП: You said that because of this you couldn't come for a long time – were you waiting for them to bring you this car? Or why couldn't you return to Ukraine earlier?

NDP: Yes, I was waiting for the person to manage to buy it and register power of attorney for me. And since this was in Germany, from France I had to come to Munich and from Munich already come to Ukraine by car. I was very tied up with these bureaucratic things.

АП: And this person who was buying you the car, was he in Bucha at this moment?

NDP: No, no, in Munich. Well, because Vladimir Bogush didn't have an acquaintance in France, one was found in Munich. I'm like: "Okay, I'll go to Munich."

АП: That is, someone in Munich was buying you a car, then you transferred money to them, went for this car, picked it up and drove to Ukraine?

NDP: Yes.

АП: Incredible, just incredible.